Author Topic: Proposal: Extend 'Genre' hierarchy with 'Subgenre'  (Read 28448 times)

jistme

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Hierarchies are very useful if implemented correctly, and life would be much harder without them.

Let's not generalise. I have like 120 fine-grained genres in my main group and I've never felt a need to subdivide them.

I'm just glad you are not in charge of my local supermarket.
Might be fun though if they placed all their products purely on alphabet  ;-)


PS,
Of course I fully agree that if there is chance this could be implemented, it should not affect current usage and users in a negative way.
Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 07:00:58 PM by jistme

jistme

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Made a few small changes and additions, and refined the 'keywords' file.

psychoadept

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This isn't entirely on point, but I thought you all might find this article interesting: http://tippopotamus.blogspot.com/2009/05/automatic-mp3-genre-tagging-is-it.html

I am trying to set up my genres to match Allmusic.com, and the three-level system would work well with that.
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Zak

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"This should be a useful lookup tool for anyone wanting to go ahead and manually tag their genres. I may go ahead and adopt this method of genre tagging, but I think it would take me longer than the hour suggested for 20,000 tracks."

Manually tag 20,000 tracks in an hour? Um... no. :/
Bee excellent to each other...

jistme

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This isn't entirely on point, but I thought you all might find this article interesting: http://tippopotamus.blogspot.com/2009/05/automatic-mp3-genre-tagging-is-it.html
I am trying to set up my genres to match Allmusic.com, and the three-level system would work well with that.

Thnx scampbll, that is very much to the point!

He put most of my motives for requesting this nicely into words.
Indeed one problem is that many genre descriptions are not actually genres at all. It would be a good start to split actual genres from descriptions. (as I tried to do with my listing)
Nice to see his genres list has many similarities with mine. (yet mine is better ;-)

I feel if we would have the possibility or option to use a list like mine in MusicBee there would be some interesting advantages.
Apart from more fine-grained genres and subgenres, maybe MB then could split descriptions often wrongly advertised as 'genre' to appropriate fields, such as mood, form, or description, so to keep the genres fields correct and unified as possible.

Also different spellings or namings for genres could then be changed to an agreed-on name. So that for example "Drum 'n' bass", "D&B", "D+B", "DnB" would all be corrected to "Drum and Bass". (or whatever we agree on)

It would also be convenient when you would for example select "Full on" as a subgenre for a track, MusicBee would automatically fill 'Trance' as genre, and 'Electronica' as genre category.

It would be great if there was an attractive interface for this, with the possibility to easily see and make selections from this complete 'genre category' > 'genre' > 'subgenre' hierarchy.
That would also reduce the amount of typing, thinking about or inventing new genrenames, and also prevent all kinds of different spellings and namings for the same.

jistme

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Should I update my list? ;-)
http://getmusicbee.com/forum/index.php?topic=8987.msg52432#msg52432

Hmm.  I can find Industrial Metal, but not straight Industrial or Industrial Rock (whether there's a meaningful difference between Industrial Rock and Industrial is a question I haven't resolved yet).  I can't find EBM, or subgenres such as Aggrotech or Futurepop (though I've taken to lumping everything EBM-related into Industrial Dance, which is the term allmusic uses).  I would consider Darkwave and Synthpop to be subgenres of New Wave.  But I don't consider myself an expert on these things.  It's more like "how can I apply this category in a useful way?"

- For my list I considered Industrial Metal to be an actual genre, but 'industrial' to be a style.
- I want to add EBM. Considering the limit of a 3 tree hierarchy in my proposal, do you think it should fall under 'Pop/Rock' or 'Electronica'?
- I will add Electro-industrial as a genre. (Under the 'Electronica' genre category) Would you consider Aggrotech as a subgenre of Electro-industrial, or should it go beside Electro-industrial?
- I want to add Futurepop also. Wikipedia calls it 'a form', but I think it deserves to be called 'genre'. Should it go directly under 'Electronica', or maybe one level further under 'Dance'?
- Dark wave had origins in, and was influenced by the earlier New wave, but is probably not strictly a subgenre of it. I probably placed it wrongly as a genre category though. Corrected that.
- Synthpop originated from the likes of Kraftwerk and YMO. New wave came later, so it can't be a subgenre of that...

Thanks for the input!

psychoadept

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EBM is more electronica than pop/rock.   Aggrotech and Futurepop are both subgenres of EBM, for my money.  This is the challenge, right?  The genres split off and then merge again such that subgenres across different genres start to sound a lot alike.  But if you're going to separate electro-industrial from "pure" EBM, then Aggrotech is a subgenre of electro-industrial.  Futurepop I suppose would be Electronic > Dance.  It's definitely not quite a standalone genre.

I'm basing my understanding of Synthpop off of this (and also comparing sounds):
According to Wikipedia: "[Synthpop] arose as a distinct genre... as part of the New Wave movement of the late-1970s to the mid-1980s."
According to allmusic.com: "Synth Pop was one of the most distinctive subgenres of new wave."
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jistme

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EBM is more electronica than pop/rock.   Aggrotech and Futurepop are both subgenres of EBM, for my money.  This is the challenge, right?  The genres split off and then merge again such that subgenres across different genres start to sound a lot alike.  But if you're going to separate electro-industrial from "pure" EBM, then Aggrotech is a subgenre of electro-industrial.  Futurepop I suppose would be Electronic > Dance.  It's definitely not quite a standalone genre.

I'm basing my understanding of Synthpop off of this (and also comparing sounds):
According to Wikipedia: "[Synthpop] arose as a distinct genre... as part of the New Wave movement of the late-1970s to the mid-1980s."
According to allmusic.com: "Synth Pop was one of the most distinctive subgenres of new wave."

I'll have to digest and 'study' some more on Aggrotech and Futurepop. (not a very familiar territory to me)  A challenge indeed ;-)

I dare to take an opposing stand concerning Synth pop against the sources you mention.
I think it is a valid argument to state that Kraftwerk, YMO, Jean-Michell Jarre etc. were the first artists to create music that can be called 'Synth pop' before New wave even existed?

To prove my wrong, could you name New wave music from the early 70's?

psychoadept

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I'm not familiar enough with early synthpop (or New Wave) to say one way or another.  This is why I'm trying to learn about genre, and the points of contention are both fascinating and make it darn hard to find an easy way to categorize things.  :)  I just know that in my library, things which are commonly described as Synthpop seem loosely related to Depeche Mode, and often Synthpop and New Wave are used for the same artists.

As far as I can tell, as a consumer, Aggrotech and Futurepop are distinguished mainly by whether they have distorted vocals.  Futurepop does have a "cleaner" sound overall, and Aggrotech tends to have darker/more violent themes, and often uses samples from war and horror films (Full Metal Jacket has been sampled so many times it's a cliche). (Editing to add that, as the name suggests, Futurepop often has a sci-fi feel to it.  But it's not required.)
Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 07:18:50 AM by scampbll
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jistme

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As far as I can tell, as a consumer, Aggrotech and Futurepop are distinguished mainly by whether they have distorted vocals.  Futurepop does have a "cleaner" sound overall, and Aggrotech tends to have darker/more violent themes, and often uses samples from war and horror films (Full Metal Jacket has been sampled so many times it's a cliche). (Editing to add that, as the name suggests, Futurepop often has a sci-fi feel to it.  But it's not required.)

Thnx, I got a clearer picture now.
Both were added.
I placed Futurepop under 'Dance', since it can be described as "techno-beat-driven, club-oriented music".

latest version: http://bit.ly/MB_subgenres

Bee-liever

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Hey jistme,
I noticed that Traditional Pop and Pub Rock are missing from the list
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jistme

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Hey jistme,
I noticed that Traditional Pop and Pub Rock are missing from the list

Thnx for noticing & notifying ;-)

'Traditional pop' completely escaped from my radar (I never knew what was really meant by it to be quite honest). I will add it.
'Pub rock' is also new to me. Doing a fast search on it, I get the impression it might not be a specific genre, but more a description of mood/setting/location. (drunk Aussies ;-)

You make the call: genre or description/keyword?

Bee-liever

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'Pub rock' is also new to me. Doing a fast search on it, I get the impression it might not be a specific genre, but more a description of mood/setting/location. (drunk Aussies ;-)

You make the call: genre or description/keyword?

Wiki, rateyourmusic, discogs, musicbrainz and ILoveMusic all go with genre, so I'll agree with them. Allmusic describe it as a variant of rock'n'roll and roots rock.
I'll think you'll have to do both 'Pub Rock [UK]' and 'Pub Rock [AUS]'. The UK variant was an early 70's, short-lived movement, paving the way for punk, while the Aussie version lasted through until the early 80's.

Some of the UK bands would be:
Dr. Feelgood
Chilli Willi
Kilburn & The Highroads (Ian Dury's original band)

Aussie bands include:
AC/DC (Bon Scott era)
Cold Chisel
Midnight Oil (early stuff, especially 'Head Injuries')

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jistme

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Wiki, rateyourmusic, discogs, musicbrainz and ILoveMusic all go with genre, so I'll agree with them. Allmusic describe it as a variant of rock'n'roll and roots rock.
I'll think you'll have to do both 'Pub Rock [UK]' and 'Pub Rock [AUS]'. The UK variant was an early 70's, short-lived movement, paving the way for punk, while the Aussie version lasted through until the early 80's.

Some of the UK bands would be:
Dr. Feelgood
Chilli Willi
Kilburn & The Highroads (Ian Dury's original band)

Aussie bands include:
AC/DC (Bon Scott era)
Cold Chisel
Midnight Oil (early stuff, especially 'Head Injuries')

Excellent.
Added accordingly.
Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 08:11:08 AM by jistme

TASMANI

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i can't download it i think it will be very helpful and i want it please tell me