VUMeter Plugin

[sveakul]

Just put in 2.0 and I see Linear is still available so I gave it a quick test, and like I mentioned in my last post, it DOES give more "movement" to some meters.  I posted a gif before falling asleep, starts with "Linear" enabled on the AL-65 Calibrated skin.  The source is a high-level chilltrax that then goes into a quiet part before an upswing.  Part way through you'll see a part of the VUMeter menu pop in, that's where I dis-abled Linear, and right away it settles into a slow meander, before re-enabling Linear towards the end.  Just so you don't think I've been crazy reporting this.  As I mentioned before though, this is probably due to falling into some "sweet spot" of the linear "oil level" design.  HOWEVER..  thanks BoringName for keeping it around a while longer especially as the BINs do include a lot of the oil meter design.
https://mega.nz/file/OQBGRAAS#xXF9vzbDt5GKFQdBGTXCYA8ASRxyngVYMbp7Oun3xI8

Edit:  another example since I'm still awake.  This uses a BIN for the first time, hiccup's creation with some color mods by me.  Starts in Linear mode, Mobility at 5/5, Event.  Note how the full range is used, with LEDs showing peaks (LED use Peak is set);  when you see the menu pop in it shows Linear enabled at which time I dis-able it, and immediately the meters go to peak level and just move near there.  Sorry for the jerkiness I was using 16fps on the GIF cam.  Based on this, I say please hang on to Linear as an option at least for BINs!  FWIW, Linear here closely resembles the response of the same meter in Foobar's new plugin when it is set to "RMS".
https://mega.nz/file/uJhUEICT#3KN-zWvhQSvubJhHPZNctha_hLYFNNxCA_cHrJNIKnY

One more example at 32fps., same meter as above.  This time, I START with Linear OFF;  and you can see a fully pinned, unusable display.  Then I turn Linear ON, and the meter immediately begins responding normally.  Just regular pop music.
https://mega.nz/file/OFhjRBoB#lw-NR39u4px7NHTM9ddfl8ZSDrUG2rSJo6yjz3lE8KQ

[hiccup]

I posted a gif before falling asleep, starts with "Linear" enabled on the AL-65 Calibrated skin.  The source is a high-level chilltrax that then goes into a quiet part before an upswing.  Part way through you'll see a part of the VUMeter menu pop in, that's where I dis-abled Linear, and right away it settles into a slow meander, before re-enabling Linear towards the end.  Just so you don't think I've been crazy reporting this.

Obviously you are not crazy. You are just using a skin that is not intended for playing music.

As I explained before, that 'calibrated' version was meant for testing purposes only.

- It was only created to be of some assistance to BoringName with getting levels working properly for the plugin.
- It makes no sense at all to use a VU meter skin that was calibrated for peaks while the VU meter plugin uses an RMS-like averaging method.
- The needle curve of that calibrated version is not tweaked for good response when playing music.

The above is obviously the reason that you are not happy with how it looks with default settings.
It should not be used for playing music.

Anyone that likes this meter should use the released version of AL-65.

The plugin should not keep this 'linear' option only because someone wants to use the test version of a skin that was clearly not designed for playing music.

@BoringName:
If you agree, I think it would be good to remove the 'linear' option.
I think it has brought enough confusion and misunderstanding now.
As mentioned before, oops has also removed it from his plugin. Probably for the exact same reasons.

[sveakul]

The plugin should not keep this 'linear' option only because someone wants to use the test version of a skin that was clearly not designed for playing music.

@BoringName:
If you agree, I think it would be good to remove the 'linear' option.
I think it has brought enough confusion and misunderstanding now.
As mentioned before, oops has also removed it from his plugin. Probably for the exact same reasons.

Wow, I guess I'm that "someone", haha..  You know, I'm not trying to insult you or confuse people by using "linear" with your meters, calibrated or otherwise.  I figured they were all designed for playing music.  My preference for more and quicker "movement" is why I brought it up;  I made another gif using the regular, NON-calibrated AL-65 that shows the same effect (linked below) going from linear "on" to "off", so put it down to my taste as opposed to the meter.

BTW when it first showed up on oop's plugin I posted in the Foobar forum that it "pinned max" every time it was used.  It obviously did not belong with that package.

Hey if BoringName wants to remove it fine, I'm not trying to spread misinformation or upset anybody just express an observation and opinion.  I did that and I'm done with it.

https://mega.nz/file/2YZVWJLT#Z65aiTNE-OWbE_oylA0niLZQL_-DIEuM6TILH994978

[hiccup]

I'm not trying to spread misinformation or upset anybody just express an observation and opinion.

I'm sure that you are not.
But I think it is important to distinguish facts from guesses or assumptions.
And I am not sure that this discussion is factually about linear vs. logarithmic curves.
It only seems to be based on some subjective observation, based on using one specific.skin.
 
By now I have asked several times for you to list some existing VU meter skins that are not working well with the default setting and only work well when unchecking the 'linear' setting.
(and not by simply increasing or decreasing the gain)
I was honestly curious about that since you keep mentioning how important that setting seems to be to you.

But you are now only mentioning one single skin of mine, which to me indicates that I perhaps should work on that one.
It is in no way a valid argument to keep an option setting that is (in my opinion) useless, is misunderstood, and is (and will be) confusing users.

[sveakul]

By now I have asked several times for you to list some existing VU meter skins that are not working well with the default setting and only work well when unchecking the 'linear' setting.

But you are now only mentioning one single skin of mine, which to me indicates that I perhaps should work on that one.
It is in no way a valid argument to keep an option setting that is (in my opinion) useless, is misunderstood, and is (and will be) confusing users.

I think you meant to say, "..and only work well when unchecking the 'linear' setting."  FWIW one of the gifs I posted last night (now deleted) was a different skin, the BIN meter.  Look, as I said I'm done with this, PLEASE BoringName, remove "Linear"!!

[BoringName]

I hope you like it.

Nice one. Creating foobar skins is more complicated but it's a lot more flexible on what can be created.

In regards to the Linear option. This needs to be checked if you want the meter to look how the creator intended. Well as close as it can anyway.

Unchecked is just using a method I came up with because my initial testing started on uncalibrated skins and I thought AIMP wasn't doing it properly (I should have known better). I don't really know how to describe it because it's using a logarithmic method on a logarithmic value (peak values). I made arbitrary adjustments to the formula for Foobar skins because it didn't really work for those initially.

At this stage I'm not that worried about leaving it in, it would actually be a little bit of work removing it. I personally don't understand why anyone would want to use it because it makes the meter wildly inaccurate but I guess it can make the meter a bit more dynamic in some cases.

edit: just to clarify, I don't understand why anyone would want to use the meter with "Linear" unchecked. If I did remove the option the meter would be using "Linear" all the time.

[hiccup]

I personally don't understand why anyone would want to use it because it makes the meter wildly inaccurate but I guess it can make the meter a bit more dynamic in some cases.

I'm getting annoyed at myself for asking this same question over and over again:
What VU meter skins are working badly using the default option that can not easily be solved by adjusting the gain?
Names and numbers please.
It's an honest question. That still hasn't been answered.
It looks like oops (the creator of the fb2k plugin) also didn't think there were any, so he removed the option.

Obviously it is your prerogative to keep in an option that is pretty much useless, but to me it is sort of a stain in a for the rest pretty much perfect implementation of what is good and effective.

Slightly off-topic:
While the new foobar2000 plugin for this is very impressive in its options and tweakability, I much prefer your implementation.
I like the end result better (which is the main thing this should be about), and I appreciate that it is not throwing out all sorts of option settings that not many users will understand, but more importantly, won't do much to get better results.
Its like just throwing out all sorts of options to the user and leave them to figure things out.
I much prefer something that works well from the get go.
And then maybe have a somewhat hidden 'advanced' option menu for freaks like us.

This is pretty much why I placed foobar2000 secondary as my player/manager and bumped-up MusicBee to first place many years ago.
MusicBee just works. For fb2k to function, look and behave as required it needs a lot of time and effort that gets more frustrating over time.

So I guess this is just me wishing for MusicBee plugins to act the same.
They just work. Not bothering the user with options that not many truly understand, and that are pretty much useless for 99.9% of the users or possible scenarios.
 

[BoringName]

Obviously it is your prerogative to keep in an option that is pretty much useless, but to me it is sort of a stain in a for the rest pretty much perfect implementation of what is good and effective.

If the meter isn't 100% accurate (which it isn't). Doesn't that mean the whole thing is subjective?

Some other users might consider other options a "stain"  and "useless" because they will never use them. Although that would require them to actually post something in here.....

It's not really named correctly anyway. With Linear checked it follows the logarithmic peak values so really it's a logarithmic option. With it unchecked it's more like logarithmic squared.....

[Bee-liever]

I'm getting totally confused after the last few posts.
Should the 'Linear' option be checked or unchecked?
Is it different for Aimp or bin skins?
Hiccup's calibrated skins should not be used for music but only for testing?
And if so why didn't they come with this caveat on the download links.

I don't know about anyone else, but at this stage I'm ready to revert to VUMeter1.8.2 and leave it at that

[hiccup]

Hiccup's calibrated skins should not be used for music but only for testing?
And if so why didn't they come with this caveat on the download links.

They were created at the very first development stages of the plugin when it was using peak levels.
So things changed when the plugin was later improved by using averaging methods.

I have removed them for now.
Perhaps I will modify some a bit, since I do like the look of some, and then make them available again. (leaving out the word 'calibrated')
Not sure yet, and it takes quite some work creating and modifying these VU meter skins.

[BoringName]

Should the 'Linear' option be checked or unchecked?
Hiccup's calibrated skins should not be used for music but only for testing?
And if so why didn't they come with this caveat on the download links.

Having linear checked and using a calibrated skin is as close to accurate is it can be but it's never going to be 100% accurate. That applies to all skin types.

I have to admit I'm a bit confused about the calibrated issue as well. A lot of time has been spent getting the meter accurate as it can be and complaining about the linear option which trades accuracy for a more dynamic meter (sometimes) while stating calibrated meters shouldn't be used seems contradictory to me.

So far all the foobar skins seem to be accurate except for lenco-blue.bin which is stuffed. When you play a test file the needle points at the correct level.
LVU skins are accurate.
AIMP skins are hit and miss. Some are not accurate because they have the wrong settings in the skin.ini file but there are a lot that are not accurate because they were designed to look good and accuracy wasn't a consideration.

[sveakul]

@BoringName : thanks a lot for the BIN image extractor, finally a way to get at images to make color changes.

The obstacle now seems to be how to re-import the images into the source BIN.  VUEditor only looks for *.vu "Project Files," which I have no idea how to extract.  Can you point me in the right direction?

Thanks also for the extra information on how the settings in version 2.0 of your plugin effect the 3 meter types.  With the AIMP skins I have found that with careful use of the mobility sliders (with the AIMP Override selected) combined with selective use of Linear I can get very accurate movement at a pleasing up/down rate (the latter I prefer quicker than most of the skin.ini files).  BIN meters with LEDs and needles (read: the hiccup original) respond to peaks beautifully when "LED use peak" is selected.

One "not really a bug" I've noticed is that unlike the other settings, "Event Mode" always reverts to un-checked on MB restarts so I need to remember to re-check it each time (huge effort I know!).

[hiccup]

About the single skin that made sveakul ask to keep in the 'linear' option:

Maybe there was a problem with that 'calibrated' skin, I have no idea.
It isn't worth my time checking because it was just a version for testing purposes.
The regular version is and was easily available and works great.

I have to admit I'm a bit confused about the calibrated issue as well.

What probably makes this 'calibrated' stuff a bit complicated to understand is this:

foobar2000 uses RMS for the needle action.
But these calibrated skin versions are designed for peaks.
That means that if you play a 0 dB sine-wave on foobar2000, the needle will point at -3 dB, which is the correct value for such a sine-wave.

But if you play that same test tone in MusicBee, the needle will point at 0 dB.
Because the MusicBee plugin uses peaks instead of RMS.

The new foobar2000 plugin has the option to use peaks.
So that one will then also point at 0 dB.

But now comes the tricky part:

MusicBee's plugin uses some averaging method for the needle movement.
Which means that when playing music, MusicBee will show a needle action that is neither identical to foobar using RMS, nor to foobar2000 using peaks.
The difference is especially clear to see at lower volumes.

It will even depend on the content of the music. The sound of a trumpet, a synthesizer, the human voice, etc. may show the same peak values, but the RMS values can differ to a very large degree.

So it will not be possible to create a skin that will behave exactly the same in MusicBee and in foobar2000.

When creating foobar2000 skins you have the possibility to create your own curves for the needle response.
So you could create two different versions of the same skin.
Well, three actually:
One for MusicBee, one for foobar2000 in RMS mode, and one for foobar2000 in peak mode.

So, this is why people shouldn't have some misconception that 'calibrated VU meters are better'.
For playing music it is an irrelevant concept, and they will most likely perform worse than a version that is designed for music.

For people that want to check this out themselves, I have created a new version of AcuVU, now in the foobar2000 bin format. (which is also much better for these kind of skins then previous AIMP versions)
It is calibrated for peaks, so it should be helpful for testing this stuff.

It can be found here

A lot of time has been spent getting the meter accurate as it can be and complaining about the linear option which trades accuracy for a more dynamic meter (sometimes) while stating calibrated meters shouldn't be used seems contradictory to me.

I hope the above clears up what I believe is the case, but I'm confused about what you are saying in that sentence.
By 'the linear option', do you mean the functionality when it is on (default), or when it is off (unchecked)?
I'm still curious for someone to name a couple of regular VU meter skins that work better with that (mislabeled) setting 'off'.
Until somebody finally does that I will remain convinced it is a useless setting.
 

[hiccup]

The new 'Mobility Settings' sliders are working very well.
The only minor thing is that I think I will never set them above 3, and wished that the range between 1 and 4 was a bit more fine-grained.
Maybe there are skins that work better with higher settings, but on the coupe of skins I tested this with, anything above 5 gets very nervous.

I also wonder about the labels 'positive' and 'negative'.
Only users that have created AIMP skins will understand what they mean. And not even all of them understand it.
Wouldn't something like 'attack' and 'decay' be better? Or 'rise' and 'fall'?
Most users will understand those without waking up ChatGPT.

'Mobilty Settings' could probably also be improved upon, but I can't think of something right now.

----

A request/suggestion:
For foobar2000 skins you can have bin1 and bin2, for left and right meters.
But you can also have bin3.
That one is for when using a skin in mono mode.
See the new AcuVU skin that I mentioned above to see how that works.
(use foobar2000 32bit for this, it looks like the 64bit plugin also isn't able to display it)

---

I notice that with music that starts with some percussive sound, the meter often misses the first beat.
I can imagine it if there is no easy fix for that, but I thought to mention it anyway.

---

I've experienced a couple of times now that at some moment in time the needle gets stuck at a certain level and won't move lower again.
It hasn't happened enough for me to be able to replicate it somehow, but maybe you have some ideas about this anyway.
 

[sveakul]

About the single skin that made sveakul ask to keep in the 'linear' option:

Because I happened to name one example doesn't mean there was a "single skin" that made me ask to preserve the linear OPTION for users;  I'm at a loss to explain the degree of personal "affront" you seem to take at the whole concept, most if it directed at me, as if I am some kind of incompetent.

Hiccup you have made your case/opinion very thoroughly about why you feel the Linear option in the plugin is worthless.  BoringName has come back with good explanations of his own of what it does and why it can be a good OPTION to use.  Man can't we just leave it at that??  Let users make up their own minds what looks best or what sounds best (the VST debate) etc.  If I wanted a player that made all my decisions for me I wouldn't be using MusicBee.  It's time to bury the hatchet on all this and just enjoy things in our own way, without continually being challenged on the use of this or that "setting."

BTW, a +1 to your suggestion that "Attack" and "Decay" or Rise/Fall would be better labels than "Positive" and "Negative" for the mobility sliders.