This post and the next are an effort to recreate and preserve the replies that were deleted when the forum mishap happened.
#1 Mr. Trev
Very nice. Thanks.
Although it may mean more work for me (being more specific with tags) since all my stuff is using fairly generic genre tags - mostly to keep my portable devices from getting confused
Thank you Mr. Trev.
It can indeed be an incentive to waste more time on your hobby ;-)
But this is also intended as a potential time saver.
If you use auto-tagging, and the tags source providers supply good quality genre tags… , it should save time and make navigating and exploring your library better and easier.
For now sourced genre tags are often disappointing, but I do see some improvements and progress being made here and there.
I am convinced in the long run it will get better and better, and the need for manual tagging will become less and less.
So MusicBee will then be just a little bit ahead of the game ;-)
#3 Mr. Trev
Indeed, the rub has always been trying to find a place where the genre tags match up with my ideal.
How well does MB handle keeping the genre tag as database only - if even possible?
I've been thinking of maybe creating a copy of MB (gotta love the portable version) and using that to experiment with. I was thinking of using what Musicbrainz Picard picks (maybe using the last.fm plugin) and see what happens. If there isn't any issue with keeping the genre changes just saved to the database (not written to the actual files) it wouldn't be that big of a deal if I end with with a total mess - I'd just restore my backup.
If it actually works out OK, then I'd commit to writing the tags to the files.
The other thing for me to consider is it's going to affect my DAPhile server and how to deal with syncing to my devices (eg. I don't need my jazz tunes broken down to hard bop, 3rd stream, etc. Blanket jazz is good enough for that)
Sorry for going a bit OT,
hiccup, thank you very much for sharing this useful genre list enhancement with us.
I often had problems setting the appropiate (difficult word for Germans ;-) ) genre for my music files.
There are so many different flavours and subdivisions in a lot of the general genres.
I am looking forward to try your plugin this evening on my home computer.
You're welcome Adson.
Please also check post #2.
It describes another tool I have just added that can be useful if you use a custom Subgenre tag additional to the generic Genre tag.
(and I updated the Enhanced Genre Hierarchy browser file too)
Please feel free to give any feedback on your experiences. This is all still under development, and fresh eyes and input will be useful in ironing out flaws and improving things.
#6 Mr. Trev
'I'm not sure how I missed the subgenre tag tool, but thanks again.
This possibly could work great for me. I haven't setup a subgenre tag yet, but I could use a script to copy Picard's genre tag to the subgenre tag instead. IIRC, Picard was using more specific tags for genre than I was using, which would be perfect for my subgenres.
You didn't miss it, I only created and added it today ;-)
#8 Mr. Trev
Sweet, I'm not completely losing my mind.
Is it safe to edit your txt files? Just for the sake of personalization of course - I'm lazy so all my "Heavy Metal" tracks are tagged as just "Metal". Seems like it'd be easier to change your list rather than all my files.
Changing the name of categories, or changing what genres go where shouldn't be a problem.
I wouldn't change the genre names, since they are as they are named in the databases of MusicBrainz and Discogs.
But you could add your own of course.
It's good that you raise the subject. A quick websearch shows there are some different opinions about what is metal and what is heavy metal.
Wikipedia says they are the same and interchangeable, but I think that is incorrect.
I will probably be making some changes in the hardware department…
@hiccup, the installation instructions above are slightly out of date
#12 Mr. Trev
Ah, makes sense. I suppose that'd be the best way to go about it (using Musicbrainz/Discogs as a reference)
On the other hand, I'm going to have to agree with Wikipedia that "Metal" and "Heavy Metal" are the same - the joys of subjective taste.
A couple quick install questions too:
If I toss both the "tag hierarchy" and "enhanced tag hierarchy" into the correct folder, which one takes priority? Should I even have both? <nevermind, I just noticed there's only the enhanced version now. maybe this is what Steven is referring to>
Second, regarding the "subgenre" tool: I/we have to manually create the MusicBee>AppData>TagHierarchyTemplates folder, correct? Or should it be auto-created, which in my case didn't happen.
Yeah, I think (at least these days) it would be best to consider Metal just as an abbreviation of Heavy Metal.
But some will disagree:
And even some sites that are valuable sources on genre matters are not that clear about it:
If you read the description on Metal here: https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/metal
they use both names interchangeably.
But when you look at the hierarchy list on the right, they have put Heavy Metal under Metal.
Not a biggie though, I'll probably just rename the Heavy Metal category to Metal and the 'issue' will be solved.
I edited the 'howto' to match the current implementation.
Both the Enhanced Genre Hierarchy browser and the Subgenre Tagger were updated.
- A couple of genres were added.
- Some improvements were made on the Classical section.
- The category 'Heavy metal' was renamed to 'Metal'.
- The Enhanced genre browser is now better aligned to match subgenres created with the Subgenre tagger.
- Some other small improvements.
Download links are in the startpost
#15 Mr. Trev
The updated install instructions made things much clearer. I still was using the original tool (ie. not enhanced version). I also was on an older version of the beta so that may have had an impact too.
I have updated everything and it seems to be working as expected. Now to start adding subgenres…
Can we use multiple subgenres, eg. "Baroque; Concerto"?
Sure. You could add both the subgenres 'Oi' and 'Baroque'.
Then when using the hierarchy browser, that track will show up both under Classical and under Punk.
b.t.w. that's kind of the beauty of this hierarchy browsing. A lot of music can't be defined to being only one single genre.
When in such doubt you can tag a song (or an album) with several genres (e.g. both Soul, Disco and Funk), and it will show up when selecting any of these categories.
If you use the Subgenre tagger with the vertical tag editor, only relevant subgenres to the Genre are proposed.
You can select more than one, but when you save, do understand that any subgenre tags that were there before will be deleted.
So you can't use this to add subgenre tags to existing ones. It will clear what was already there.
it is important if the band plays Black/Death Metal
or Death/Black Metal
... also there is a difference between Progressive Doom Metal
or Progressive/Doom Metal
, hahaha... I write a seperate "Metal hierarchy list", based on my library and metal archives.
Heyyy, it's Thrash Metal, not trash ;-)
They suggest the subgenres:
Black | Death | Doom/Stoner/Sludge | Electronic/Industrial | Experimental/Avant-garde | Folk/Viking/Pagan
Gothic | Grindcore | Groove | Heavy | Metalcore/Deathcore | Power | Progressive | Speed | Symphonic | Thrash
And it seems fine. I use mp3tag with metal-archives plugin for tagging, so I got hundreds of sub-sub genres, which I can't handle with genre categories - but now. Awesome
Do they have a list of approved genres and subgenres, or can a user add any genre name as he pleases?
Based on user submissions, heavily moderated
#20 Mr. Trev
So, everything seems to be working fine, just wondering how you have your vertical tag editor setup? Panel? Floating? I can't seem to find any way where it isn't way too intrusive.
Also, where do you personally go to get your genre/subgenre tags? I've been trying the various plugins in Picard, but I'm getting nothing other than the generic ones I already use
At the moment I have it in the left main panel, beneath the Tag hierarchy explorer.
You can set a shortcut key for the Vertical tag editor too, so you can quickly toggle it in/out of sight.
I'm using Picard's internal genre feature, the Wikidata genre plugin, and for classical music the Classical Extras plugin.
The results are usually quite bland and not that refined. But still useful for some initial categorisation and for getting some pointers and ideas.
Even though most providers these days have improving subgenre lists, it will be a human effort to apply them to releases. And considering how debated and complicated the matter is, that seems to be a very slowly progressing matter.
Most contributors will feel safe entering 'what's on the box', and getting names and facts right.
Adding something that has a risk of somebody else commenting on to be 'incorrect' is a risk many contributors may not be willing to take.
Everybody likes to be 'correct' these days, right?
Also I don't think Discogs and RYM have API's. I am not sure if other users have ways to retrieve tags automatically from them?
(I believe alec.tron is doing something with that?)
I do have custom weblinks for them and a couple of other websites, so it's easy to quickly see what genres they are suggesting for a release.
I am a bit hesitant to add such additional category levels for Metal.
Most Metal music of any subgenre has overlaps with other subgenres.
That often doesn't have to be a big problem, but for a hierarchy sheet like this, a subgenre can only go into one category.
Looking at the suggested categories above, where would these go?:
Industrial black metal
Industrial death metal
Industrial groove metal
Symphonic black metal
Symphonic death metal
I am guessing the first three go in 'Industrial', and the other three in 'Symphonic'?
What about these three:
Melodic black metal
Melodic death metal
Melodic groove metal
There is no 'Melodic' category, so they should probably go separately in: Black, Death and Groove?
Now if this is true, the result will be that when you select the category 'Black metal', you will not see the Industrial and the Symphonic versions, only the Melodic one.
Some other difficult ones (for me at least):
Does it go in the 'Symphonic' category or in the Metalcore/Deathcore category?
Or: 'Blackened death metal'.
I believe that's a fusion genre of Black metal and Death metal.
It can't go in both categories, and since it's a fusion of the two, it also can't go in one of them.
So in what category should it go?
In many cases metal subgenres seem to be about differences in either styles, lyrical content, tempo, atmosphere, etc.
To me that makes it difficult to define clean-cut sub-categories that will suit the general user, and will actually improve browsing instead of complicating it.
Maybe it is the 16 categories as suggested being a bit too many for this purpose?
Perhaps a smaller amount could work, I am not sure.
#23 Mr. Trev
Thanks for the feedback. Personally, I'll probably just skip the vertical tag editor for now - old habits die hard
I'm not sure if I have Picard set up wrong or something since it didn't seem to matter what plugin I used, I always got the same results.
A Discogs API would be nice. I like their simple Genre/Style
So far I filtered the additions:
Atmospheric | Avant-garde | Blackened | Brutal | Depressive | Electronic | Epic | Experimental | Industrial | Medieval | Melodic | Progressive | Psychedelic | Raw | Symphonic | Technical
went into their own tags (Groups for me).
So I am left with the big Subgenres:
Black, Death, Doom/Stoner/Sludge, Electronic/Industrial*, Experimental/Avant-garde*, Folk/Viking/Pagan, Gothic, Grindcore, Heavy, Metalcore/Deathcore, Post- (Post-Metal, Post-Black Metal, Post-Hardcore), Power, Progressive*, Speed, Symphonic*, Thrash and I forgot Nu Metal/Groove Metal, sorry
*there are Bands playing exclusively that subgenre, e.g. Queensrÿche/Progressive Metal or Therion/Symphonic Metal.
An Atmospheric Black Metal Band is now a Black Metal Band for me with the Tag "Atmospheric".
Nonetheless I have 350 Metal subgenres remaining and not sure what to do with them:https://bin.disroot.org/?d209a382fe992814#4USYyKmQ7zYefgbMgYwN9kLb18HwcNmLbjrZfTSZXLyP
But there is a Discogs API :https://www.discogs.com/developers
And, there's also ready to use plugins using the above for MusicBee, as well as Foobar.