About loudness normalization...

[JZStudios]

Does the normalise act dynamically in the track, or is it a simple gain boost? I have some older classic rock (and older albums in general) that are much quieter than newer digitally produced stuff, even stuff that isn't clipping to hell. This means that any time I set the music to shuffle the classics are always quiet and/or I have to keep adjusting the volume.

I'd prefer it to be a simple gain boost instead of killing the dynamic of the song, and I know there's a batch normalise, but I think that averages out everything, and I specifically only want it to boost the classic stuff.

[hiccup]

Does the normalise act dynamically in the track, or is it a simple gain boost?

MusiBee's analyse volume function does not dynamically change the volume of softer or louder parts within a song.
It will analyse the perceived loudness of a track, and/or an album as a whole, and tag it with values that can be used at playback.
So it will also not change the audio content of the file. (unless when you sync to a device and specifically select that option)

Google for EBU R128 and you should be able to find plenty of good information about it's workings.

[Steven]

I removed a post and banned user misanthrope as it was quite ill-informed and obnoxious

[JZStudios]

I'm going to bring this back since I never noticed it got any responses. I set the volume analysis on my entire library to -1dB. I get that it uses EBU R128 and that essentially finds assumingly the average loudness based on "loudness units" to apply a sort of pre-amp on a per track or per album basis.

What I don't know is if it sets the given value on the slider according to the clipping value, or the average value. I also don't know if the clipping alert applies to every instance of clipping, like the top 1% or the top 5%. When I record music with my friend he sets it so the top 1% clips, and it's no big deal.
A point of confusion for me is I set everything to -1dB and some songs say they need -.3dB. If it's set to -1 why am I getting a clipping alert when it says to set it to -.3 to avoid clipping?

[captain_paranoia]

I think the basic question ought to be: what type of normalisation calculation does MB perform:

- peak normalisation, or
- loudness normalisation

The former just requires a search for the biggest sample in a file, and the replay gain is then merely a simple gain setting to bring that sample to some target level (which might be the FSD for the bit precision of the samples, or some value X dB below that).

The latter requires a more complex computation of 'loudness', which is a psychoacoustic perception, not directly related to a simple peak value.

A track with a single sample at FSD with all other samples zero would give a peak normalisation replay gain of 0dB (with a target of FSD), but would result in a large loudness normalisation replay gain, attempting to produce an average track loudness; that would cause the single FSD sample to be clipped during the playback levelling. Clipping an FSD sample to FSD wouldn't be noticeable clipping, but, for a more real-world track, it might well be, depending on the peak-to-mean ratio of the track.

So, if MB uses a loudness normalisation function, it might also note the peak value in the track, and determine whether the computed replay gain would cause that peak value to clip. Personally, I would want to avoid any samples clipping, so I would hope the clipping detector would operate on that single peak value. This would also be more computationally efficient to implement, as you would not need to perform playback levelling of all the samples in the entire track.

I would not recommend letting digital music clip during recording. Digital clipping simply hits a hard end stop; it is not forgiving of overloading like tape recording is, which results in a soft clipping due to saturation of the magnetic tape.

Unless hard digital clipping is a 'sound' you are going for in the style of music you play (some sub-genres of metal). But you can easily add that effect, to a selectable degree, in post-processing of the recording. Trouble is, you need to set your recording level at the start of recording, anticipating the peak input level.

Hard clipping on CDs came in with the 'loudness wars', which most people agree resulted in horrible-sounding recordings.

[JZStudios]

I think the basic question ought to be: what type of normalisation calculation does MB perform:

- peak normalisation, or
- loudness normalisation

The former just requires a search for the biggest sample in a file, and the replay gain is then merely a simple gain setting to bring that sample to some target level (which might be the FSD for the bit precision of the samples, or some value X dB below that).

The latter requires a more complex computation of 'loudness', which is a psychoacoustic perception, not directly related to a simple peak value.

A track with a single sample at FSD with all other samples zero would give a peak normalisation replay gain of 0dB (with a target of FSD), but would result in a large loudness normalisation replay gain, attempting to produce an average track loudness; that would cause the single FSD sample to be clipped during the playback levelling. Clipping an FSD sample to FSD wouldn't be noticeable clipping, but, for a more real-world track, it might well be, depending on the peak-to-mean ratio of the track.

So, if MB uses a loudness normalisation function, it might also note the peak value in the track, and determine whether the computed replay gain would cause that peak value to clip. Personally, I would want to avoid any samples clipping, so I would hope the clipping detector would operate on that single peak value. This would also be more computationally efficient to implement, as you would not need to perform playback levelling of all the samples in the entire track.

I would not recommend letting digital music clip during recording. Digital clipping simply hits a hard end stop; it is not forgiving of overloading like tape recording is, which results in a soft clipping due to saturation of the magnetic tape.

Unless hard digital clipping is a 'sound' you are going for in the style of music you play (some sub-genres of metal). But you can easily add that effect, to a selectable degree, in post-processing of the recording. Trouble is, you need to set your recording level at the start of recording, anticipating the peak input level.

Hard clipping on CDs came in with the 'loudness wars', which most people agree resulted in horrible-sounding recordings.

Umm... I don't think that answered any of my questions.
As to the recording, it's acoustic guitar and vocals, and the top .1% of random volume spikes being clipped isn't a big deal, and no way in hell are you hearing it. Otherwise the average level is maxed while maintaining the least amount of clipping to keep the dynamics. So if MB is detecting the top .1% of clipping, I don't really care, since you're not going to hear it. Also considering it's really only applying a pre-amp and not dynamic normalization that would kill the dynamics of a song.
But if MB is detecting clipping of say, the top 5%, that's more substantial and would possibly be more noticeable.

[hiccup]

When I record music with my friend he sets it so the top 1% clips, and it's no big deal.

At this day and age with pretty much all equipment handling audio at 24 bits with abundant headroom, allowing for any clipping at all is sloppy.

A point of confusion for me is I set everything to -1dB and some songs say they need -.3dB. If it's set to -1 why am I getting a clipping alert when it says to set it to -.3 to avoid clipping?

What is confusing about this? If a track will clip at MusicBee's -1dB setting, it advices you to lower the level with an extra-2dB to avoid this clipping.
Or maybe you need to explain better what you mean? (Especially the second sentence of your question confuses me a bit)

[JZStudios]

When I record music with my friend he sets it so the top 1% clips, and it's no big deal.

At this day and age with pretty much all equipment handling audio at 24 bits with abundant headroom, allowing for any clipping at all is sloppy.

A point of confusion for me is I set everything to -1dB and some songs say they need -.3dB. If it's set to -1 why am I getting a clipping alert when it says to set it to -.3 to avoid clipping?

What is confusing about this? If a track will clip at MusicBee's -1dB setting, it advices you to lower the level with an extra-2dB to avoid this clipping.
Or maybe you need to explain better what you mean? (Especially the second sentence of your question confuses me a bit)

Sure. Whatever. Like it really matters when you can't possibly hear the less than a nanosecond of minor clipping. I don't mean to get defensive and pissy, which I'm prone to do, but if we set it so there was literally no random clipping spikes, everything else would be incredibly quiet and the noise of the microphone would become much more prominent. Either way I'm not very interested in continuing this non-relevant topic.

Now I'm confused. When I set MB to -1dB it gives me an alert that it needs to be set at -.3dB to avoid clipping. I don't know how to explain that any clearer. That's literally all it is. I'm not convinced it means to drop the dB by another .3dB, because when I do that it and set it to -1.3dB and do it again, it still says it needs to be set to -.3dB.
And maybe I'm really not understanding how this all works because any clipping would be playback, and unless MB induces clipping, it's all pretty much burned into the tracks. Neither Windows nor my AVR are anywhere near max. Setting it to -1dB to me seems like that should negate digital playback clipping.

[hiccup]

Sure. Whatever. Like it really matters when you can't possibly hear the less than a nanosecond of minor clipping. I don't mean to get defensive and pissy, which I'm prone to do, but if we set it so there was literally no random clipping spikes, everything else would be incredibly quiet and the noise of the microphone would become much more prominent. Either way I'm not very interested in continuing this non-relevant topic.

You brought up clipping at the recording stage. And since this is a public forum that others may stumble upon to I think it is valid for me to state that these days (using 24bits equipment) allowing for clipping on the recording stage means you are really doing something wrong.
Also, the clipping could get worse and more noticeable when you or somebody else encodes the lossless source to a lossy codec.
But indeed, this is drifting off-topic from your original question, so if you want to continue this, better take it to 'Beyond Musicbee'.

Now I'm confused. When I set MB to -1dB it gives me an alert that it needs to be set at -.3dB to avoid clipping.

MusicBee tells you there to adjust the value with... Not to set it to...

Could that be the confusion?

[JZStudios]

Sure. Whatever. Like it really matters when you can't possibly hear the less than a nanosecond of minor clipping. I don't mean to get defensive and pissy, which I'm prone to do, but if we set it so there was literally no random clipping spikes, everything else would be incredibly quiet and the noise of the microphone would become much more prominent. Either way I'm not very interested in continuing this non-relevant topic.

You brought up clipping at the recording stage. And since this is a public forum that others may stumble upon to I think it is valid for me to state that these days (using 24bits equipment) allowing for clipping on the recording stage means you are really doing something wrong.
Also, the clipping could get worse and more noticeable when you or somebody else encodes the lossless source to a lossy codec.
But indeed, this is drifting off-topic from your original question, so if you want to continue this, better take it to 'Beyond Musicbee'.

Now I'm confused. When I set MB to -1dB it gives me an alert that it needs to be set at -.3dB to avoid clipping.

MusicBee tells you there to adjust the value with... Not to set it to...

Could that be the confusion?

I mentioned clipping as a question of how does MB do it, and how much clipping is occurring. Which is relevant to the topic at hand. If it's clipping the top .1%, I don't really care, I'm not going to hear it. If it's clipping 5% or more, that's more substantial and I'd like to know which is the case. As is, MB doesn't tell you how much clipping is occurring.

I don't think so. aside from it not explicitly stating one way or another, as mentioned if I make it -1.3dB it still says it needs to be set -.3dB. It doesn't say if the slider should be at -.3, or to reduce a further -.3dB, but either way it doesn't change the clipping warning.


It just says track -.1dB when I'm set to -1dB. Also of note is that sometimes it'll say album values and track values. The clipping doesn't make much sense anyways. If I have it set to -1dB and digital clipping doesn't occur until over 0dB I don't understand how it apparently has clipping.

[hiccup]

As is, MB doesn't tell you how much clipping is occurring.

That's correct. It tells you if clipping is occurring.

I don't think so. aside from it not explicitly stating one way or another,..

It explicitly says " dB adjustment required"

The clipping doesn't make much sense anyways.

That's your opinion. You are the first user I know of that has these issues and believes something is seriously flawed.
The only minor flaw that I know of is that sometimes after adjusting the suggested value, MB will still report a difference of 0.1 dB which is due to some internal rounding off.

Be aware that you are the first user in all these years that I know of that has trouble adjusting the sliders correctly following MusicBee's suggestions. I also never had such issues, nor do I understand yours.

I will leave the room for possibly others to chip in.
Good luck.

[JZStudios]

You know what? I'm done.

[The Incredible Boom Boom]

Several things... clipping while recording digitally is always bad and always wrong. Two, you're not likely hearing "the noise of the microphone" if you're using a decent one - either your room is too noisy or something else in your chain is causing the unwanted feedback.

If it's clipping the top .1%, I don't really care, I'm not going to hear it. If it's clipping 5% or more, that's more substantial and I'd like to know which is the case.

The confusion and chaos in this thead is caused because the statements you're making don't really make much sense, so it's hard to understand or follow what you're trying to communicate.

As is, MB doesn't tell you how much clipping is occurring.

I don't think so. aside from it not explicitly stating one way or another, as mentioned if I make it -1.3dB it still says it needs to be set -.3dB. It doesn't say if the slider should be at -.3, or to reduce a further -.3dB, but either way it doesn't change the clipping warning.

MusicBee is working properly and is telling you the information you are wanting to know, you're just not understanding it. After running the analyzer on the album, uncheck all songs, then set and run only the track gain setting on the individual tracks you want to eliminate clipping on. So, for example, you would check only the fifth song in your list, adjust the slider down by whatever value you wish, check only the "on track basis" option and then run the analyzer again.