Author Topic: Proposal: Extend 'Genre' hierarchy with 'Subgenre'  (Read 42321 times)

hiccup

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This is a really comprehensive list; unfortunately since it only has two levels, I would argue that it's not as practical (even for general use) as a structure such as this one: …

Obviously it would require quite a bit of effort to further classify the genres you've included into sub-genres. Note that in Alec's implementation of sub-genre structuring, he opted not to use "subgenre" tags, which I think is the most appropriate solution for making it accessible to normal users.

I might try to merge the two in the Community Version

The problem with defining an extra subgenre level is that only deciding on a main- and child- category already is a subjective matter. Deciding on a third level becomes even more subjective.

When doing a web-search on what music genre is a subgenre of what other genre, you'll find that opinions usually differ a lot and are seldom unambigous.
And in many cases when somebody calls something a subgenre, in reality it will be more of an amalgam of more than one genre.

And e.g. what would be appropriate subgenres for a 'World' category'?
Spain?, Spanish?, English?, Gaelic?, Celtic?, Baltic?, Swedish?, Nordic?
(don't even try; been there, tried it, failed)

Also, the average user will probably look at the name of a genre.
Jazz-rock? Must be Rock.
Nu jazz, must be Jazz.
Dream house? Must be House.
Swamp-pop? Must be Pop.
(spoiler: guess again)

For some less genre-conscious users this will already pose some confusion in a two-level hierarchy, but adding a third level is prone to making things even more difficult or confusing.

The genre hierarchy list I specifically designed for 'general use' has the intention to be as objective, unbiased, and easy-to-use as possible.
(my personal version is a very different story and does contain more levels, but is also pretty useless to anybody else)
I feel this version is already an enormous improvement on what have been MusicBee's default genre- and genre grouping lists for many years.
(which received no complaints at all that I am aware of)

Your observation and suggestions are valid though, and it's food for thought to perhaps improve my list.
I'll see if I can find some area's where I can safely add another level that will improve navigation for the average user without threading into too subjective territories or triggering discussion or confusion.

But the main objectives for this particular list will remain:
- containing all, and only currently considered 'valid' genres that MusicBee users are likely to encounter when auto-tagging genres.
- trying to avoid too much bias.
- having an efficient and comfortable navigation structure.

Anything deviating too much from that in my opinion is better suited to be offered as an optional feature/download.
Last Edit: July 29, 2020, 10:22:48 PM by hiccup

zkhcohen

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The problem with defining an extra subgenre level is that only deciding on a main- and child- category already is a subjective matter. Deciding on a third level becomes even more subjective.



Yep. I agree with everything you said here. I think we'll all just have to settle on our favorite.  :)

Steven

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- option to show file counts
For parent nodes the count is the simple sum of all the counts from the leaf nodes. However that count wont necessarily match the files displayed on the main panel when the node is selected as there can be double counting eg. a "Blues" node has "Electric Blues" and "Memphis Blues" as child nodes. Say 11 files are tagged with both those genres means the same 11 files will display under "Electric Blues" and also under "Memphis Blues", the "Blues" parent node will say 22 files when infact only 11 display in the main panel.
I cant think of an efficient way to get the accurate count for the parent node, so what i will probably do is not show the count on the parent nodes but open to comments

edit:
never mind - i have an idea how to do this now

https://getmusicbee.com/patches/MusicBee34_Patched.zip
Last Edit: July 30, 2020, 12:34:31 PM by Steven

zkhcohen

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- option to show file counts
For parent nodes the count is the simple sum of all the counts from the leaf nodes. However that count wont necessarily match the files displayed on the main panel when the node is selected as there can be double counting eg. a "Blues" node has "Electric Blues" and "Memphis Blues" as child nodes. Say 11 files are tagged with both those genres means the same 11 files will display under "Electric Blues" and also under "Memphis Blues", the "Blues" parent node will say 22 files when infact only 11 display in the main panel.
I cant think of an efficient way to get the accurate count for the parent node, so what i will probably do is not show the count on the parent nodes but open to comments

edit:
never mind - i have an idea how to do this now
https://getmusicbee.com/patches/MusicBee34_Patched.zip

Unfortunately the hierarchy only shows the top node in this version:



I'm also not quite understanding why the "No Tag Hierarchy For" feature shows that one doesn't exist for Witch House, when it clearly does:



Capitalization?
Last Edit: July 30, 2020, 02:40:45 PM by zkhcohen

alec.tron

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Capitalization?
I often found the case for this  to be an extra white space at the end.
i.e.
"Witch house::Genre "
instead of
"Witch house::Genre"

edit:
never mind - i have an idea how to do this now
Noice!

c.

Steven

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Unfortunately the hierarchy only shows the top node in this version:
Can you send me a link to your hierarchy file.
Also check the error log

edit:
try this version:
https://getmusicbee.com/patches/MusicBee34_Patched.zip
Last Edit: July 30, 2020, 11:21:03 PM by Steven

hiccup

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I updated the hierarchy and grouping files.

The top hierarchy is now exactly identical to the Genre grouping categories:




For some of these categories there is an extra level to split and refine main categories such as Blues/Country/Folk, EDM/Electronic, etc.:




For some genres where it was both useful and possible to do (without it becoming too subjective), an extra genre level was created.
These genres are: Hardcore, House, Techno, Trance, Ambient, IDM, Rock, Heavy metal, Punk.
Any genre that doesn't fit well enough in one these categories goes into 'other'.




download Genre hierarchy and grouping list

Testers are invited…

I do have a slight itch some mistakes may have been introduced, resulting from the endless juggling with formulas, sheets, and copying and pasting in Excel to create these files.
 
Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 03:14:53 PM by hiccup


zkhcohen

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Testers are invited…

I do have a slight itch some mistakes may have been introduced, resulting from the endless juggling with formulas, sheets, and copying and pasting in Excel to create these files.
 

Oooh, this one might be the most controversial yet, but it's also my favorite.

I'm going to play around with it.

---

Updated my version with heavy modifications based on Hiccup's new 3-layer. Now ~1300 unique genres:

https://github.com/alectron/MusicBee_TagHierarchies/blob/master/Genres/Community%20Versions/(Combined%20with%20Hiccup)%20MusicBee_3Layer.txt
Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 05:34:48 PM by zkhcohen

Steven

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I'm also not quite understanding why the "No Tag Hierarchy For" feature shows that one doesn't exist for Witch House, when it clearly does:
did you ever figure out why it was showing as missing?

hiccup

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Oooh, this one might be the most controversial yet…

You are probably right.
I updated the download to a more objective and possibly less controversial one.

@Steven
If you are going to include a genre hierarchy based on my work, please use the version that is now in the download link.

Steven

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@Steven
If you are going to include a genre hierarchy based on my work, please use the version that is now in the download link.
has it changed in the last few hours?


Steven

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Is it intentional you got rid of Blues, Country, Folk etc sub-groupings under Blues · Country · Folk ?

hiccup

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Is it intentional you got rid of Blues, Country, Folk etc sub-groupings under Blues · Country · Folk ?
Yes.
Because there could be discussion about Country, Folk, Americana not having such clear and distinct boundaries between them.
The same goes for House and Techno, R&B and Soul, Rock, Punk and Metal, etc.

So for this (more plain) vanilla version I think it is better to play safe and avoid bias and possible discussions on the matter.

I still have my personal version that does refine more.
And not only for Blues/Country/Folk, but also for Classical, Jazz, Reggae, etc.
It also contains genres that are currently not present at Discogs and MusicBrainz (and so won't be retrieved by MusicBee either), but I do consider a useful addition to a comprehensive genre map.

But that 'enhanced' version will probably be better suited to be an optional download that I can design, maintain and update without the need to consider or imagine what the the average MusicBee user would like or expect.
And I can take the blame and the credit for that one too.
 
Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 02:54:28 PM by hiccup