Author Topic: Usage of Multivalue Tags | <Artist> <Composer>  (Read 1031 times)

Mayibongwe

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Here's my argumentation for having a dedicated Album Artists tag:
https://getmusicbee.com/forum/index.php?topic=29851.msg166102#msg166102
While chewing on the concept of album artists, I got heavily distracted by your use of <artists: artist>.
I've created a new topic here instead of responding in either of those threads because I don't wanna pollute/derail what they were intended for.



Is the above screenshot from your linked thread currently how you have these artists tagged?
If I was replying to a new forum member, I would even be bold enough to say that they're using <artist> incorrectly,
but seeing as I am addressing somebody more knowledgeable and experienced than me, I'm thinking there's something I'm missing here.

Why has <artist> (a multivalue tag) been tagged with Aretha Franklin & George Michael?
Your very reason for creating the custom tag <artists [credited]> (splitting up the two artists above) is what <artist> itself is designed for.

There's also an artist tag for Patti LaBelle feat. Michael McDonald? I'm perplexed...

Wanna hear your feedback on this before going back to the composers thread.
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hiccup

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If I was replying to a new forum member, I would even be bold enough to say that they're using <artist> incorrectly,
but seeing as I am addressing somebody more knowledgeable and experienced than me, I'm thinking there's something I'm missing here.
Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt ;-)

Because for me the Artist is the release artist.

Just as it says on covers, or as MusicBrainz has them stored.


The artist here is Aretha Franklin & George Michael




It is not Aretha Franklin and George Michael, or Aretha Franklin with George Michael, Aretha Franklin; George Michael, etc.

To make these artists separately available (in the screenshot you referenced) they go into Artists [credited]
   edit:
   They would go into Artists, if that would have been a dedicated tag, and not a virtual version that displays differently depending on where it is used...


It is the exact same way as I am using Album Artist vs. Album Artists.
Album Artist is always singular, and named exactly as on the release.
Album Artists will contain the album artists individually.

My explanation here should explain things well enough?

Obviously, same as most matters regarding the usage of tags, this is not about what is right or what is wrong. (there exist no rules)
But the way I am using it makes perfect sense to me.
 
Last Edit: January 27, 2024, 03:10:20 PM by hiccup

Mayibongwe

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Because for me the Artist is the release artist.
Just as it says on covers, or as MusicBrainz has them stored.
hmm...fair enough. But I'm not so sure how well that concept plays along with MusicBee (or modern digital record keeping as a whole).
When you browse through the Music Explorer with <artist> as your field of choice in the filter panel,
I don't suppose you get to see I Knew You Were Waiting For Me under Aretha Franklin's or George Michael's list of tracks?

Aren't your library stats inaccurate then? Because plays from the above song won't get registered under Aretha nor George?

MusicBee's auto-retrieval features rely on artists being tagged separately.
The way you have it there would conflict with a lot of these features (your composers in the Theater Mode playground were an example)
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hiccup

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When you browse through the Music Explorer with <artist> as your field of choice in the filter panel,
I don't suppose you get to see I Knew You Were Waiting For Me under Aretha Franklin's or George Michael's list of tracks?
I honestly don't know. And I don't care much ;-)

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Aren't your library stats inaccurate then? Because plays from the above song won't get registered under Aretha nor George?
I honestly don't know. And I don't care much ;-)

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MusicBee's auto-retrieval features rely on artists being tagged separately.
Are you sure? (I don't use such functionality in MusicBee much)
I would guess that if a search is performed on Aretha Franklin & George Michael, the results would be to the point?

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The way you have it there would conflict with a lot of these features (your composers in the Theater Mode playground were an example)
Are you suggesting that MusicBee can retrieve composer portraits properly, depending on how the composers are named?
I am 99.998997996995% sure that it can't.

Which is why I have gathered lots of composer images and stored them locally.

Mayibongwe

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Are you sure? (I don't use such functionality in MusicBee much)
I would guess that if a search is performed on Aretha Franklin & George Michael, the results would be to the point?
Searching/filtering within MusicBee itself would be quite accurate irrespective of which tagging form is in use.
But your installation would have quite a hard time correlating with plugins.

With Lyrics Reloaded for instance (if there wasn't any "fuzzy" versions) or proper plugins like slonopot's that make use of APIs,
none of those songs on the screenshot would pull through because MB feeds them <artist> (a tag where an individual value is expected on either end - MB and the plugin source).

Are you suggesting that MusicBee can retrieve composer portraits properly, depending on how the composers are named?
I am 99.998997996995% sure that it can't.
Certainly. Case in point: https://getmusicbee.com/forum/index.php?topic=39254.msg212032#msg212032
I am not sure what sources are used by the TM plugin, but if it is anything API based, individual/separated values will surely yield better results.
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Mayibongwe

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https://musicbrainz.org/recording/c44dc5d0-7c4a-4629-8d1e-f5268a8f7bae
If I'm looking at the artist column here, I only see tags for <Aretha Franklin> and <George Michael>.
There isn't any <Aretha Franklin & George Michael> because this would be a role for the <display artist>, not the actual <artist> tag.
The source code to any of my contributions is available on the same download link as the add-ons

hiccup

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With Lyrics Reloaded for instance (if there wasn't any "fuzzy" versions) or proper plugins like slonopot's that make use of APIs,
none of those songs on the screenshot would pull through because MB feeds them <artist> (a tag where an individual value is expected on either end - MB and the plugin source).
Well, my strong belief regarding tagging is that you should start with always populating them using plain facts.
If the Album Artist is Rufus featuring Chaka Khan, that is what should go there, nothing else.

If other software later on has issues with handling the truth, that should be resolved at that side.
(as you yourself have marvelously done with the Lyrics Reloaded plugin)

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Certainly. Case in point: https://getmusicbee.com/forum/index.php?topic=39254.msg212032#msg212032
Touché ;-)
I shouldn't have used the word 'perfect' there.
I believe that was about the specific problem retrieving images for multivalue composer tags that was then solved.

But in practice, even that did not solve the underlying issue that it is (in my opinion) completely impossible to have MusicBee retrieve correct and usable composer images.
In a way that it can for 'regular' artists.
(but the cause of that will lie at the side of the providers, not so much MusicBee itself)

So to stay on-topic: the way how composer or composers are tagged does not make a blinking difference since the results will always be deplorable.
And let's not even enter the rabbit hole problem of all the variations on how classical composers can be named.

hiccup

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If I'm looking at the artist column here, I only see tags for <Aretha Franklin> and <George Michael>.
There isn't any <Aretha Franklin & George Michael> because this would be a role for the <display artist>, not the actual <artist> tag.
That's when you perform a search on the MusicBrainz website.

I am using MusicBrainz' Picard for tagging my music, and it does a perfect job in finding pretty much all releases and recordings that I load into it, and I am using a script for Picard that will write both Artist, Artists [credited], Album Artist, Album Artists, Composer, and Composers, etc. perfectly in the way that I have been describing.

It sounds complicated (it took some thought and to set things up though), but these days, for a new acquired album or song, it only takes me a couple of mouse clicks to get all relevant tags populated properly without any manual intervention.
And MusicBee reading them perfectly.
(I am a bit worried now if the new Composers tag will be messing things up for me and my vast classical library, but I'll need to test that later)

You and me just seem to have a different approach towards tagging.
I value being factual and logical first, and will try to solve any possible issues later.
You are having a wider view, and are also considering (and worrying) about what other applications or tools 'will think of it' and are willing to bend things a bit towards those.
Last Edit: January 27, 2024, 04:24:19 PM by hiccup

Mayibongwe

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Was gonna post the below before your reply just now.

Well, my strong belief regarding tagging is that you should start with always populating them using plain facts.
If the Album Artist is Rufus featuring Chaka Khan, that is what should go there, nothing else.
If other software later on has issues with handling the truth, that should be resolved at that side.
And mine as well.
But before we go into the complicated <album artist> (which for now, I don't think I disagree with you there):
For artists, the fact here is that there are two individuals who've been credited as artists to aforementioned song.

Pretty much all modern digital databases recognize those two artists as <Aretha Franklin> and <George Michael>.
From those databases, I don't think any of them will know what you're talking about when you come with "I've got an artist named <Aretha Franklin & George Michael>

The tagging you consider right and the one I consider right contains the same fact/truth about the artists and their song.
The only issue at hand here is compatibility. Using tags as intended will ensure perfect communication between software.

For the most part, I agree with what you say about there being no wrong and right in tagging, but consistency or widely preferred tagging should take preference.
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hiccup

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For the most part, I agree with what you say about there being no wrong and right in tagging, but consistency or widely preferred tagging should take preference.
That's an opinion ;-)

But the majority, or the ones 'in power' are not always right.
And I am not ashamed of being obnoxious enough to rub that in, haha!

Mayibongwe

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I think for all MusicBee purposes and intents, you are substituting the role of <artist> with <artist credits>.
And therein lies the ambiguity in the composers thread that led to a requested tag that you did not expect to work the way it ended up being introduced.

The source code to any of my contributions is available on the same download link as the add-ons

Mayibongwe

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And perhaps Picard has extensive capabilities like MusicBee, which is why I would think you've managed to find the not-so-easy solutions to map your tracks accordingly.
But the "stock/basic" versions of either program would be infuriating to somebody who didn't have the skills to navigate their way around what the applications deemed unexpected* tags.

*unexpected as in not following the crowd kind of thing (which the programs in power dictate).

Edit: Last.fm - which you don't use either, I believe - would be another big database that would have problems with your tags, I think.
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hiccup

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I think for all MusicBee purposes and intents, you are substituting the role of <artist> with <artist credits>.
And therein lies the ambiguity in the composers thread that led to a requested tag that you did not expect to work the way it ended up being introduced.
It looks to me that we are going in circles now.
I can't explain how I am using these singular vs multiple tags any better than I already have, and it is working perfectly for me.
For many years now.
So it's probably best for me to gracefully bow out of this discussion.

I'm still happy to specifically discuss the new (v3.6 beta) Composers tag further here.

Mayibongwe

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I'm still happy to specifically discuss the new (v3.6 beta) Composers tag further here.
Righty tighty. I will think on what's been said here and add (if any) more info to the linked thread.
But yes, these differing views on the tags, in my opinion, ties up with the other discussion (which is why I'd taken it out of there coz this has been lengthy).
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boroda

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I am a bit worried now if the new Composers tag will be messing things up for me and my vast classical library, but I'll need to test that later
ds those.

off-topic:
@hiccup, i'm not too interested in this discussion, my tagging system is pretty basic, but why you just don't rename your "composers" custom tag to something else?