Author Topic: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list  (Read 6614 times)

hiccup

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Both the Enhanced Genre Hierarchy browser and the Subgenre Tagger were updated.

- A couple of genres were added.
- Some improvements were made on the Classical section.
- The category 'Heavy metal' was renamed to 'Metal'.
- The Enhanced genre browser is now better aligned to match subgenres created with the Subgenre tagger.
- Some other small improvements.

Download links are in the startpost

Mr. Trev

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On the other hand, I'm going to have to agree with Wikipedia that "Metal" and "Heavy Metal" are the same - the joys of subjective taste.

Yeah, I think (at least these days) it would be best to consider Metal just as an abbreviation of Heavy Metal.
But some will disagree:
(https://ironskullet.com/2017/10/30/the-history-of-heavy-metal-part-i-the-difference-between-metal-and-heavy-metal/)
And even some sites that are valuable sources on genre matters are not that clear about it:
If you read the description on Metal here: https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/metal they use both names interchangeably.
But when you look at the hierarchy list on the right, they have put Heavy Metal under Metal.

Not a biggie though, I'll probably just rename the Heavy Metal category to Metal and the 'issue' will be solved.

Quote
A couple quick install questions too:…

I edited the 'howto' to match the current implementation.
That probably cleared things up?

The updated install instructions made things much clearer. I still was using the original tool (ie. not enhanced version). I also was on an older version of the beta so that may have had an impact too.
I have updated everything and it seems to be working as expected. Now to start adding subgenres…
Can we use multiple subgenres, eg. "Baroque; Concerto"?

hiccup

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Now to start adding subgenres…
Can we use multiple subgenres, eg. "Baroque; Concerto"?

Sure. You could add both the subgenres 'Oi' and 'Baroque'.
Then when using the hierarchy browser, that track will show up both under Classical and under Punk.

b.t.w. that's kind of the beauty of this hierarchy browsing. A lot of music can't be defined to being only one single genre.
When in such doubt you can tag a song (or an album) with several genres (e.g. both Soul, Disco and Funk), and it will show up when selecting any of these categories.


If you use the Subgenre tagger with the vertical tag editor, only relevant subgenres to the Genre are proposed.
You can select more than one, but when you save, do understand that any subgenre tags that were there before will be deleted.
So you can't use this to add subgenre tags to existing ones. It will clear what was already there.

LR7

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Oh "Metal"...  ;D  it is important if the band plays Black/Death Metal or Death/Black Metal... also there is a difference between Progressive Doom Metal or Progressive/Doom Metal, hahaha... I write a seperate "Metal hierarchy list", based on my library and metal archives.

Heyyy, it's Thrash Metal, not trash ;-)

They suggest the subgenres:
Black | Death | Doom/Stoner/Sludge | Electronic/Industrial | Experimental/Avant-garde | Folk/Viking/Pagan
Gothic | Grindcore | Groove | Heavy | Metalcore/Deathcore | Power | Progressive | Speed | Symphonic | Thrash

And it seems fine. I use mp3tag with metal-archives plugin for tagging, so I got hundreds of sub-sub genres, which I can't handle with genre categories - but now. Awesome
Last Edit: August 09, 2020, 09:53:51 PM by LR7

hiccup

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And it seems fine. I use mp3tag with metal-archives plugin for tagging, so I got hundreds of sub-sub genres, which I can't handle with genre categories - but now. Awesome

Do they have a list of approved genres and subgenres, or can a user add any genre name as he pleases?

LR7

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Do they have a list of approved genres and subgenres, or can a user add any genre name as he pleases?

Based on user submissions, heavily moderated and discussed.

Mr. Trev

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So, everything seems to be working fine, just wondering how you have your vertical tag editor setup? Panel? Floating? I can't seem to find any way where it isn't way too intrusive.

Also, where do you personally go to get your genre/subgenre tags? I've been trying the various plugins in Picard, but I'm getting nothing other than the generic ones I already use

hiccup

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just wondering how you have your vertical tag editor setup? Panel? Floating? I can't seem to find any way where it isn't way too intrusive.

At the moment I have it in the left main panel, beneath the Tag hierarchy explorer.
You can set a shortcut key for the Vertical tag editor too, so you can quickly toggle it in/out of sight.
 
Quote
Also, where do you personally go to get your genre/subgenre tags? I've been trying the various plugins in Picard, but I'm getting nothing other than the generic ones I already use

I'm using Picard's internal genre feature, the Wikidata genre plugin, and for classical music the Classical Extras plugin.
The results are usually quite bland and not that refined. But still useful for some initial categorisation and for getting some pointers and ideas.

Even though most providers these days have improving subgenre lists, it will be a human effort to apply them to releases. And considering how debated and complicated the matter is, that seems to be a very slowly progressing matter.
Most contributors will feel safe entering 'what's on the box', and getting names and facts right.
Adding something that has a risk of somebody else commenting on to be 'incorrect' is a risk many contributors may not be willing to take.
Everybody likes to be 'correct' these days, right?

Also I don't think Discogs and RYM have API's. I am not sure if other users have ways to retrieve tags automatically from them?
(I believe alec.tron is doing something with that?)

I do have custom weblinks for them and a couple of other websites, so it's easy to quickly see what genres they are suggesting for a release.
Last Edit: August 11, 2020, 05:31:28 PM by hiccup

hiccup

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Oh "Metal"...  ;D  it is important if the band plays Black/Death Metal or Death/Black Metal... also there is a difference between Progressive Doom Metal or Progressive/Doom Metal, hahaha... I write a seperate "Metal hierarchy list", based on my library and metal archives.

They suggest the subgenres:
Black | Death | Doom/Stoner/Sludge | Electronic/Industrial | Experimental/Avant-garde | Folk/Viking/Pagan
Gothic | Grindcore | Groove | Heavy | Metalcore/Deathcore | Power | Progressive | Speed | Symphonic | Thrash

And it seems fine. I use mp3tag with metal-archives plugin for tagging, so I got hundreds of sub-sub genres, which I can't handle with genre categories - but now. Awesome

I am a bit hesitant to add such additional category levels for Metal.

Here's why:

Most Metal music of any subgenre has overlaps with other subgenres.
That often doesn't have to be a big problem, but for a hierarchy sheet like this, a subgenre can only go into one category.

Looking at the suggested categories above, where would these go?:

Industrial black metal
Industrial death metal
Industrial groove metal

Symphonic black metal
Symphonic death metal
Symphonic metal

I am guessing the first three go in 'Industrial', and the other three in 'Symphonic'?

What about these three:

Melodic black metal
Melodic death metal
Melodic groove metal

There is no 'Melodic' category, so they should probably go separately in: Black, Death and Groove?

Now if this is true, the result will be that when you select the category 'Black metal', you will not see the Industrial and the Symphonic versions, only the Melodic one.

Some other difficult ones (for me at least):
'Symphonic deathcore'
Does it go in the 'Symphonic' category or in the Metalcore/Deathcore category?

Or: 'Blackened death metal'.
I believe that's a fusion genre of Black metal and Death metal.
It can't go in both categories, and since it's a fusion of the two, it also can't go in one of them.
So in what category should it go?

In many cases metal subgenres seem to be about differences in either styles, lyrical content, tempo, atmosphere, etc.
To me that makes it difficult to define clean-cut sub-categories that will suit the general user, and will actually improve browsing instead of complicating it.

Maybe it is the 16 categories as suggested being a bit too many for this purpose?
Perhaps a smaller amount could work, I am not sure.
Last Edit: August 11, 2020, 05:42:46 PM by hiccup

Mr. Trev

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just wondering how you have your vertical tag editor setup? Panel? Floating? I can't seem to find any way where it isn't way too intrusive.

At the moment I have it in the left main panel, beneath the Tag hierarchy explorer.
You can set a shortcut key for the Vertical tag editor too, so you can quickly toggle it in/out of sight.
 
Quote
Also, where do you personally go to get your genre/subgenre tags? I've been trying the various plugins in Picard, but I'm getting nothing other than the generic ones I already use

I'm using Picard's internal genre feature, the Wikidata genre plugin, and for classical music the Classical Extras plugin.
The results are usually quite bland and not that refined. But still useful for some initial categorisation and for getting some pointers and ideas.

Even though most providers these days have improving subgenre lists, it will be a human effort to apply them to releases. And considering how debated and complicated the matter is, that seems to be a very slowly progressing matter.
Most contributors will feel safe entering 'what's on the box', and getting names and facts right.
Adding something that has a risk of somebody else commenting on to be 'incorrect' is a risk many contributors may not be willing to take.
Everybody likes to be 'correct' these days, right?

Also I don't think Discogs and RYM have API's. I am not sure if other users have ways to retrieve tags automatically from them?
(I believe alec.tron is doing something with that?)

I do have custom weblinks for them and a couple of other websites, so it's easy to quickly see what genres they are suggesting for a release.

Thanks for the feedback. Personally, I'll probably just skip the vertical tag editor for now - old habits die hard

I'm not sure if I have Picard set up wrong or something since it didn't seem to matter what plugin I used, I always got the same results.
A Discogs API would be nice. I like their simple Genre/Style

LR7

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So far I filtered the additions:

Atmospheric | Avant-garde | Blackened | Brutal | Depressive | Electronic | Epic | Experimental | Industrial | Medieval | Melodic | Progressive | Psychedelic | Raw | Symphonic | Technical


These descriptions went into their own tags (Groups for me).

So I am left with the big Subgenres:

Black, Death, Doom/Stoner/Sludge, Electronic/Industrial*, Experimental/Avant-garde*, Folk/Viking/Pagan, Gothic, Grindcore, Heavy, Metalcore/Deathcore, Post- (Post-Metal, Post-Black Metal, Post-Hardcore), Power, Progressive*, Speed, Symphonic*, Thrash and I forgot Nu Metal/Groove Metal, sorry

*there are Bands playing exclusively that subgenre, e.g. Queensrÿche/Progressive Metal or Therion/Symphonic Metal.

An Atmospheric Black Metal Band is now a Black Metal Band for me with the Tag "Atmospheric".

Nonetheless I have 350 Metal subgenres remaining and not sure what to do with them:
https://bin.disroot.org/?d209a382fe992814#4USYyKmQ7zYefgbMgYwN9kLb18HwcNmLbjrZfTSZXLyP
Last Edit: August 13, 2020, 08:52:29 PM by LR7

alec.tron

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A Discogs API would be nice. I like their simple Genre/Style
Hai.
But there is a Discogs API :
https://www.discogs.com/developers

And, there's also ready to use plugins using the above for MusicBee, as well as Foobar.
Churs.
c.

Tommy

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Thanks for this very nice addition to MusicBee.

I'm trying to figure out how to toggle show/hide the Tag Hierarchy Explorer.

Is that even possible ?
Tommy

hiccup

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But there is a Discogs API :
And, there's also ready to use plugins using the above for MusicBee, as well as Foobar.

Thnx, I tried it (again) and immediately remembered why I quickly gave up and kind of forgot about it:
Discogs doesn't seem to have a grouping system for releases. (at least not where it concerns genres)

They allow for every variation of a release to have different genres and styles entered so you can have things like this:



Have you figured something out that works for you and avoids manually checking several releases before applying genre tags?
 

hiccup

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Thanks for this very nice addition to MusicBee.

I'm trying to figure out how to toggle show/hide the Tag Hierarchy Explorer.

Is that even possible ?

Hi Tommy, since your question is not about my 'Enhanced genre hierarchy list', but about the tag hierarchy browser in general, it would be better if if you posted your question here:

https://getmusicbee.com/forum/index.php?topic=32556.0