Genres and Sub-genres: A Practical List for Digital Music Players/Managers

[hiccup]

This can not be done.

Creating a list that contains music genres and their sub-genres that everybody on this planet can agree on and will stand the test of time.
It's not possible, and discussions on it could start WWIII.

So I thought to give it a try.

Here's a link to what I have created for my own personal use:

genre-category / genre / sub-genre sheet

I am interested in two things:

1. The genre/genre-category list as used in MusicBee.
    The built-in preset list is a bit dated, and I am guessing many users have created their own list to replace it.
    It could be interesting to share these lists here so others might benefit?

2.  Comments and suggestions on my genre-category/genre/sub-genre sheet.
     There has gone quite some effort in creating it, but it surely has some errors and oversights. If only because there are genres that I never listened to myself, or am just not that interested in.


If this all results in anything, it could perhaps provide a new and improved genre-genre category list that users can easily paste into MusicBee's genre configuration panel.
And it might help me personally in improving my own sheet.

So if anyone with strong opinions on genres, or experts on specific genres are willing to share their thoughts, it could be interesting.

[hiccup]

@alec.tron

In another thread you mentioned that you had an opinion/suggestion on Compas and Flamenco.
How and where would you place them in this sheet?

And, a more general remark on my sheet: please take into account that I forcefully limited it to use a maximum of three levels.
In some cases more levels would be appropriate and desirable, but that would make it even more difficult to have any chance of making it realistically usable in a digital music manager.
So anyone taking a look at it and proposing improvements or additions, please take into account the concessions that will have to be made to make things fit in a three-level hierarchy.

[psychoadept]

I've struggled with this myself, interested to see where it goes.

[hiccup]

I've struggled with this myself, interested to see where it goes.

Any substantive thoughts on it?

[alec.tron]

Hai,
this is already a great list!

The few things I was wondering and would probably change for my own use:
- since a genre is a name (imo), shouldn't all be in capitals ? i.e. Canadian Blues instead Canadian blues ? Another subjective bit probably...
- I would definitely split Pop from Rock - so the root Categories would look somewhat like so for my usage:
Electronic
Hip Hop
Jazz
Pop
Reggae
Rock
Soundtrack
World

- the World/Folk areas is probably one of the most complex, and as wikipedia states "World music's inclusive nature and elasticity as a musical category may pose some obstacles to a universal definition..."
So here's my personal take on it in relation to my music library, but I am far from a specialist on this...:
Since most music culture developed within a cultural region/locale (up until ~20-40 years ago at least...), I would probably, for my own use, tie some of these to continents/lands/cities (primarily for genres that are tied to a specific region/locale as well). Which in turn opens up the olde "what is folk" & "what is world music" issue/debate...
But as for those 2 you/I mentioned, which are both tied to a locale, and if sticking to 3 classes is mandatory woudl probably be this for me as an example:
World / Europe / Flamenco
and
World / Carribean / Compas
But, there's pretty much infinite further clusters when one goes down to locale...i.e. West London VS East London (one could split Grime tracks up based on that...) or Durban VS Cape Town (Gqom & Zef), for which one would need at least 4 parent groups to describe it in this system... like:
World / Africa / South Africa / Durban / Gqom

Or a few others that sit in the root of your list, this would probably be my approach:
World / Africa / Ghana / Highlife
World / Europe / Spain / Flamenco
World / Europe / Portugal / Fado

Which is why I was arguing for a free taxonomy system in the other thread... and hoping I'd only need to define this in a complex xml once, and immediately have a track tagged with 'Fado' placed in it's taxonomic curtural/locale context (as I could then define in the xml...).
But yes, it's a nearly impossible task to tackle objectively, and discogs as well as many others are struggling on this (imo, especially with the world/folk music part...) as well, or have given up and simply use gigantic umbrella terms...

Trick question (mostly to myself) - where does Miami Bass sit, then...?
World / North America / Florida / Miami / Miami Bass ?
or
Electronic / Electro / Miami Bass
or
Hip Hop / Miami Bass
...?

For fun, here's a few more rabbid holes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cultural_and_regional_genres_of_music
https://www.youtube.com/user/singingwells/videos (if struggling to pick one, pick this> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXkYPqWJS9g )
https://theglobaljukebox.org/
(does not work in Firefox, but Chrome)

c.

[hiccup]

- I would definitely split Pop from Rock -

Thanks for all this input. I'll certainly digest it and see how I can use it to improve my sheet.
I'll give some feedback after I've done your thoughts and reply justice.

The reason for me combining Pop and Rock in one genre category is twofold:

1. There is an enormous amount of music that for me is impossible to define being one or the other.
    The distinction was probably clearer in the 60's (Beatles: pop, Rolling Stones: rock*), but these days most of my favorite 'popular' music is a mix between them and for a large percentage it would be impossible for me to decide if an album or a song is either clean-cut pop or rock.

2. If I would set pop and rock as separate genre categories, it would create problems in the sense that it would become very difficult to cover all genres and sub-genres in a three-level hierarchy. Many current 'genres' would need to 'step down' to become 'sub-genres', and then there would be no room for actual sub-genres. Or genres would need to be mixed with sub-genres in some cases, which I would like to avoid.
(adding a fourth level could solve this, but that's not an option here)

I did start out having pop and rock as separate genre categories, but I quickly ran into problems that were much more problematic compared to combining pop/rock in a single category.

Hate to say it, but the word and the concept of 'compromise' is an essential force that will dictate a lot of what can be done here.


*  even in those 'simple' days, is the Stones' song 'Angie' pop or rock?

[alec.tron]

Aye, comes down to music library make up & listening/grouping preferences in the end I guess.
Then again, I would consider all of this:
Electronic
Hip Hop
Jazz
Reggae
Rock
Soundtrack

Categories that imo fall under the pop (i.e. "Popular Music") umbrella in the western/global media moloch/juggernaut sense anyway under which a lot of music has been created just because it is commercially viable & popular in a lot of areas around the world with superfluous income, supporting a musical genre/group for a time span.
In that regard the whole "Pop" umbrella is pretty similar to World, being equally 'inclusive nature and elasticity' but instead of a locale, being tied to commercial/popular success...

c.

[hiccup]

Then again, I would consider all of this:
Electronic
Hip Hop
Jazz
Reggae
Rock
Soundtrack

Categories that imo fall under the pop...

Having Rock there is a typo, right?
Or do we seem to agree on the principle that they are too hard to distinguish to separate them into separate main categories?

[hiccup]

Soundtrack

What? Do you consider soundtrack a music genre?

[alec.tron]

Nope. No typo.
Pop for me is no music genre in and for itself, but can be anything that is successful.
So I only use that genre/label/style/tag for 2 needs:
- to tag tracks that were extraordinarily successful within their genre/style.
- and the other pop tag I use is to mark tracks that (to me) feel as if it has been written only to have higher/highest commercial appeal, often immitating some trend that was pop at the time...


As for soundtracks - this is also similar to World & Pop groups a special case, and a means to categorize bits that do not fit the other categories I have. One attribute why I want to separate them is that it was written with a certain target in mind (if we're talking purpose written soundtracks and not a compilation of repurposed musical pieces... which is a sub category of soundtracks in my world to separate the two Soundtrack Categories...).

Also, a rock track on a Soundtrack album will most likely also have a tag from within the Rock group.
I think I have very very few tracks that only have a single genre attribute...

As in 'comes down to music library make up & listening/grouping preferences'
c.

[psychoadept]

I've struggled with this myself, interested to see where it goes.

Any substantive thoughts on it?

Yes, just don't have time to get them in order yet

[hiccup]

Nope. No typo.
Pop for me is no music genre in and for itself, but can be anything that is successful.

Ok, so you don't consider 'Pop' to be a musical genre.
That's an opinion I could give some thought, and if playing good cop/bad cop I probably could defend depending on my state of mind.

But, just earlier you said:

- I would definitely split Pop from Rock - so the root Categories would look somewhat like so for my usage:
Electronic
Hip Hop
Jazz
Pop
Reggae
Rock
Soundtrack
World

Here you listed both Pop and Rock as equals.
So then Pop would be a category. But following your other train of thought; if you have a song that sounds 'rockish', but the composer wrote it with the sole purpose of it becoming popular, under what category/genre should it fall?
Would it make a difference if the song was categorised before (if) it became a popular success, or after that?
And would it need to be — quote: 'successful' in your country, or in the USA, or Europe, or Senegal, etc.?
Surely, 'we' could categorise a song or an album from Mali as 'world music' or 'folk music', while 'they' will just call it pop music.


Going down this road would not result in producing any genre list that would generally work for me as a MusicBee user.
And achieving a slightly sensible and usable compromise is my aim with this thread.

So, back to the nitty-gritty:
I am confused about what you are trying to convey here regarding pop and rock.

Do you feel Pop should be in the genre category or not?
If not, should it reside under another genre category as a genre, or should it not be present in the list at all?
Then, would it be some descriptive keyword? (similar to 'hit' or something?)

Where specifically would you position 'Pop' in this hierarchy?

[hiccup]

Yes, just don't have time to get them in order yet

No hurries. Quality trumps quantity.

[psychoadept]

I'm not at my computer currently, but I will say that I think how finely you slice your genres depends a lot on your personal taste.  I can subdivide my electronic music into aggrotech, futurepop, darkwave,  house, ambient, and more and probably have a decent amount of each. On the other hand, I could probably have one category each for blues and reggae and leave it at that.

Classical, of course, is its own whole mess, although in some ways I find it easier to tag than pop music. I categorize classical by period (Baroque, Medieval, Romantic), by composition type (Symphony, Sonata - this is the fuzziest, since often a piece falls into multiple categories), and by performance type (Orchestra, Choir, Solo Piano, Brass Ensemble). Movie/TV scores have their own category, and pop covers of classical works get a "Classical Crossover" tag instead of the performance type. Artists like BOND, Yanni, and E.S. Posthumus usually get "Pop Classical".

Added: I concur with alex.tron on Pop being used to label things created for wide commercial appeal.

[hiccup]

I can subdivide my electronic music into aggrotech, futurepop, darkwave,  house, ambient, and more and probably have a decent amount of each.

On the other hand, I could probably have one category each for blues and reggae and leave it at that.

Does that mean you don't have a fixed list of genre categories and genres, but that you try to adapt when you come across music that doesn't fit into your current system?