Cannot Configure Acceptable Bass Response

[schumann]

Surface Pro 3
8 gig RAM
Windows 10
MB v3.3.7310

Sound Device: NAD Wireless DAC2 using native Windows drivers shown below
Windows Sound: Enhancements Disabled, 24-96k Format, Both Exclusive Modes Checked
MB-WASAPI Exclusive; experimenting with a variety of EQ settings
Stereo Pre-amp EQ is off


I am only using the NAD as a wireless transport and not engaging its DAC.  The NAD transmitter connects to my computer via USB and transmits to its receiver which is connected via digital COAX to the DAC input in my pre-amp.  With MB, the NAD's 24/96 capability, and all my music ripped as WAV files, this has worked out well.

My problem is that for many songs, I am unable to configure MB to deliver bass without distortion. This is especially true with older rock recordings that are heavy with mids and lack bass. My attempts to add bass with MB EQ result in distortion, getting worse as the volume goes up.

Other music players do not appear to have this problem and when I drive the  stereo with a CD player using the pre-amp EQ, the bass is fine.

I am not yet that facile with MB so assume I must be missing something in the way I have it configured.

[hiccup]

Could you:

- make sure both Equaliser and DSP plugins are disabled in the Eq/DSP panel
- check if ReplayGain is off: Menu > Controls > Replay Gain off
- post a screenshot of your MusicBee audio settings: Preferences Panel > Player

[schumann]

Sorry, I could not find the plugins you referenced?

[schumann]

After my last post in response to hiccup, I noticed I had Event Mode enabled; however I don't recall selecting it and don't know what it does. After a web search, it seems it is preferred to have it enabled, especially if you are using an external DAC as I am. However, as soon as I disabled it, the quality of the MB bass improved dramatically.

I hope this makes sense and would appreciate any input on what's going on.  

[frankz]

You need to either decrease the pre-amp to account for the massive clipping you're EQing into your output -or- put the desired frequencies to zero and decrease the undesired frequencies in the EQ below 0.

[hiccup]

Sorry, I could not find the plugins you referenced?

It's right at the bottom of your first screenshot. Looks o.k.; you haven't enabled any.

I noticed I had Event Mode enabled; however I don't recall selecting it and don't know what it does

Your NAD 2 dac does not support event (asynchronous) mode, so you should leave it disabled as it is by default.

Did you check your ReplayGain settings as I suggested? I now see it's disabled indeed.

[schumann]

iIccup, thanks very much for the help, can I follow-

I am only using the NAD for wireless transport; it digitally feeds the onboard DAC in my Parasound P5 pre-amp.

Here are the P5 DAC specs
-Burr-Brown PCM1798 DAC with USB, Optical and Coax inputs
-Coax and optical accept all sampling rates up to 192 kHz, 24-bit
-USB accepts up to 96 kHz, 24-bit
-Incoming jitter on all three digital inputs is significally attenuated with an effective clock recovery system

Parasound's P6 replaces the P5 and the P6 features reference "Asynchronous USB 2.0 supports PCM up to 384kHz/32-bit" so I assume the P5 is not async.

Anything in MB you would further adjust based on the above?
Since the P5 is handling the DAC, what impact could the NAD have on the sound?

Thanks!

[hiccup]

Your PC will not see the Parasound at all, it will only see the NAD wireless USB dongle.
It won't see or recognize any dac that is connected to the NAD wireless reciever/dac.

The NAD dongle sets the limitations; no asynchronous mode, and a limited bandwidth.
Since your PC will not see the Parasound, neither will MusicBee.

So all you can do at the side of your PC and MusicBee is make sure that the dongle is recognized correctly and has no driver issues.

[schumann]

Here are the specs on the DAC2

    Sample Rate                   96kHz/24 bit
    THD+N                          0.05% (ref. 0dBFS)
    Signal to Noise               >-80dB
    Analogue Output Level    2V
    Coax SPDIF                   500mV ±50mV
    Frequency Response      20Hz to 48kHz ±0.5dB
    Digital to Analogue Converter     Delta Sigma DAC
    Time Delay                  <18rms
    RF Band                      >2.4GHz
    Transmission Range     40m (line of sight)

If the wireless component can support 96/24, would you think that it provides sufficient bandwidth to at least bring CD quality to the P5?

The P5 DAC also has a USB input so I thought with the NAD coming in through the digital coax port, it would appear to the sound source the same way it would if connected via USB. Or is any external DAC invisible to the OS and MB?

[hiccup]

If the wireless component can support 96/24, would you think that it provides sufficient bandwidth to at least bring CD quality to the P5?

Without any problem at all, without knowing the exact workings of the NAD, I am guessing you will have bit-perfect playback for everything up till 96/24.

(this NAD 2 seems a very good option for this kind of purpose b.t.w.)

The P5 DAC also has a USB input so I thought with the NAD coming in through the digital coax port, it would appear to the sound source the same way it would if connected via USB.

USB and s/pdif are incomparable entities.
The NAD dac will be the master in providing the timing of the bitstream to the Parasound. Hence; synchronous, non-event mode.

Or is any external DAC invisible to the OS and MB?

It won't see or recognize any dac that is connected to the NAD wireless reciever/dac.

If you need more information about all this stuff, I would suggest you turn to sites such as hydrogen audio. That's where the real experts any many professionals discuss these kind of things.
It would be good to try and keep this board focused on matters related to MusicBee specifically.
You could also raise such topics on the 'Beyond MusicBee' board, but I would advice a dedicated audio forum for this.

Can we assume you have MusicBee now playing as expected using your NAD wireless bridge?

[schumann]

Understood and yes, disabling Event Mode no has MB providing expected Bass!

When I acquired the NAD2 I was clueless about it being different from other devices in how it interfaces to the OS and music apps. Bypassing the OS sound interface has proven to makes adjusting the sound quality a learning and challenging experience. Unfortunately,  while NAD makes great products, their support on the DAC2 is, IMHO, poor. I have spoken with the single tech who supports it a number of times- a very nice guy who tries to help but the real-world issues faced in implementing the device escape him.

In this short thread, issues I have been struggling with for years have been resolved.

One issue I did not mention, which has been my greatest problem, is when using MB, at some point the OS would lose the interface to the DAC2 and switch back to the default sound interface (onboard Realtek) locking up MB and requiring a restart of the PC. I believe by enabling MB Buffer Size to the default has resolved this. Does this make sense?

[hiccup]

at some point the OS would lose the interface to the DAC2 and switch back to the default sound interface (onboard Realtek) locking up MB and requiring a restart of the PC. I believe by enabling MB Buffer Size to the default has resolved this. Does this make sense?

I don't know, and I can't recall other similar cases.
Some random thoughts:

- leave these settings for a while, and if it never happens again; the buffer was the cure.
- sometimes Windows will unmount a usb device when it believes it isn't used anymore.
There are ways to keep usb devices alive, but you'll need to go deeper under the Windows hood, and I am not sure at all that this is what is happening with your NAD usb dongle.
- If you do not use your onboard audio, you could disable it in the bios. Then Windows will not see it, and will never try to use it.
Again, I am not sure this will solve your issue; Windows might still loose connection with the NAD dongle anyway.
- if you run into issues that you suspect that MusicBee is a part of, you could install a portable version of foobar2000. It is a very solid audio player. If any issues you have occur with foobar2000 too, you know you will probably need to focus on Windows/NAD for solving the issue.

[vincent kars]

In general buffer size is about a uninterrupted flow, not about dropping the connection with a device.
You might try the Device Manager
http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/SW/Windows/Win7/USBDAC.htm
Probably at hub level you can disable sleep mode. Maybe it is the cause.

If you are wondering what the impact of the NAD is, take your Surface and connect it straight to the P5 using the USB. Perhaps you can connect both at the same time and, even better, do a rapid A/B

[schumann]

hiccup

I do have foobar as well as VLC installed and they don't have these problems; however, I prefer the audio quality of MB.

Right, if the NAD no longer drops then the buffers must be helping.

The drops are actually much less over all due to an earlier change I made. The Surface only has one USB port so I have to use a USB hub. Because the Surface is a tablet, apparently the power it pushes through the USB is less than a desktop or notebook so I had been using a small, 4-port powered hub. The NAD would frequently become disabled so after trying various things including updating the drivers,  I switched to a newer hub. Either because of better design or more power, the frequency of the NAD dropping is much less.

Vincent
Understood and that was the first thing I disabled. The NAD uses native Windows drivers and either because of the drivers or some sensitivity in MB, periodically the NAD will drop or MB will lock up and ask me to restart. I thought perhaps some change to buffering might at least help with MB going south.

There have been multiple issues using MB with my setup not the least is my inexperience in using MB but when everything is working, the convenience of having my whole music library so accessible and sounding so great through my audio system has been worth it!

Thanks!

[hiccup]

so I have to use a USB hub

USB hubs and digital audio; certainly not a match made in heaven ;-)

Another suggestion, not as an instead-of, but an additional option to get your music player and library more directly connected to your hifi-set:

You could setup a small W10 computer close to your Parasound dac.
It could be a mini-atx pc or a nuc (no monitor is needed), or a laptop you perhaps have lying around.
The OS and MB preferably running from an ssd, the music files can be on a traditional hdd. (internal or external)

Setup and tweak the mini-pc/laptop lean-and-mean just for playing audio.
Setup remote desktop, and then control the mini-pc/lapop from your Surface.
You would be fooled thinking you are using MB on your Surface itself.

You could still use MusicBee on your Surface and the NAD as you are doing now, but additionally, the mini-pc would be available and  function as a stable and reliable audio source, independent of possible issues with your Surface, NAD, other software, battery running on empty, etc.

-

If you would setup a small PC like this, but don't want to have a full install of MB and a library on it; another option would be to setup a DLNA server/client system.
MusicBee on your Surface being the player/controller, and foobar2000 on your mini-pc as the slave that plays and outputs the audio to the Parasound.

Such a master/slave setup would be an ideal solution for me, and I did get it working using MusicBee's UPnP/DLNA plugin and a similar plugin on foobar2000, but regrettably the MusicBee plugin proved too unstable/unreliable on my system.

But some users seem to get better results with the plugin.
It might be worth a try?