Author Topic: sub-grouping selection in extended panel doing actual grouping  (Read 187 times)

hiccup

  • Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3085
For the extended panel, you can choose to have a sub-grouping header displayed.

While it will then indeed display that header, MusicBee will not be doing any actual grouping with it, resulting in a messy layout for many releases.
For example, this is a box set containing three disks, each disk labelled with a Set Subtitle, having that selected as sub-header.
I would expect then to see three neatly organised sets, but it will display like this:



Wouldn't it be better if when using the sub-grouping header, that would not only display the sub-grouping tag per track, but would also trigger performing actual grouping?

But perhaps I am overlooking some existing setting, or not seeing some adverse results if this would be implemented?

psychoadept

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8538
I'm not sure I agree with this wish, precisely because it would muddy up album sorting. But in your example, do you have the discs numbered in tags? because it looks like it's sorting by track # but not disc #.
MusicBee Wiki
Use & improve MusicBee's documentation!

Latest beta patch (3.3)
(Unzip and overwrite existing program files)

hiccup

  • Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3085
I'm not sure I agree with this wish, precisely because it would muddy up album sorting. But in your example, do you have the discs numbered in tags? because it looks like it's sorting by track # but not disc #.

No, I am not using disc numbers. In this digital era that is a concept I am trying to leave behind.
This specific release may well be available as a vinyl box-set containing 6 lp's.
Or as a digital release, where any 'disc #' is completely irrelevant.

I don't want to burden myself with such information. I care much more about the 'artist's intent'.
And the artist's intent here is that this is one release, build-up containing three different sets.
So I would like to group the three sub-sets of this release according to the title of these sub-sets.
Irrelevant of different sorts of physical release media that are, or have been available.

In what situations do you guess my wish would create unwanted effects muddying up things?
Last Edit: October 12, 2019, 08:41:08 PM by hiccup

Steven

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 30007
I dont agree with this request as the tracks should stay sorted in disc/ track number order
However there is something weird going on in your screenshot. MB sorts the tracks in the expanded panel by disc-track#
and yet you have multiple tracks with the same track number together, presumably from different discs. So how are you tagging disc and track number fields?

edit:
You answered the question already. Not sure what to suggest

hiccup

  • Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3085
I dont agree with this request as the tracks should stay sorted in disc/ track number order

But do you agree then that the word 'grouping' is not a correct representation here?

Or have I messed up something in my test setup so that there is no grouping on the selected sub-group going on?
(this could well be the case)

Never mind, I'll give this some more thought and testing.
Last Edit: October 12, 2019, 08:51:21 PM by hiccup

hiccup

  • Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3085
and yet you have multiple tracks with the same track number together,

Ah yes, well spotted.
That is an unrelated consequence of (accidentally) having scanned both the actual harddisks where the files are located, and the virtual path links I have setup for other purposes.
Don't ask...

hiccup

  • Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3085
Ok, re-scanned and re-considered.

I guess this comes down to the fact that track numbers trump grouping in the extended panel.
In my opinion it should be the other way. Or at least have the option to choose to have sub-grouping overrule track numbers.

Let's say you have a so-called 'deluxe' edition of an album.
Set one set contains the original album, maybe dating 30 years back.
Set two has some 'previously unreleased' bonus tracks.
Set three has some live tracks recorded two years after the original release.

If you number these sets each separately (which is what I would prefer), you would have:

Original album
#1
#2
#3

Bonus 'cd'
#1
#2
#3

Live 'cd'
#1
#2
#3

But if you want this to show up neatly grouped by set-subtitle, you will need to change the numbering like this:

Original album
#1
#2
#3

Bonus 'cd'
#4
#5
#6

Live 'cd'
#7
#8
#9

or you'll need to make use of the 'old fashioned' disc numbers.

Surely opinions on this will differ, but anyone will agree that cd's are a temporary physical concept that don't carry over to digital media and storage.

But perhaps I am taking things too strict and literal, and should consider re-instating using 'disc numbers' for this purpose, and think of them as set sub-release numbers.
After all, you do need something that dictates an order for the sub-grouping.
(alphabetical would not work for this)
Last Edit: October 12, 2019, 10:04:08 PM by hiccup

psychoadept

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8538
But if you want this to show up neatly grouped by set-subtitle, you will need to change the numbering like this:

Original album
#1
#2
#3

Bonus 'cd'
#4
#5
#6

Live 'cd'
#7
#8
#9

This is what I do (well, what I have Picard do). I keep disc #, but all tracks are numbered sequentially so disc # is secondary. Since, as you say, the physical media are ultimately not that relevant, then what's the point of starting the numbering over again within an "album" unit? Just number them in the order you want them in. Otherwise, if the grouping wasn't based on disc # anyway, you'd have to change the numbering scheme to fit the grouping you want, which is just creating extra work for yourself.
MusicBee Wiki
Use & improve MusicBee's documentation!

Latest beta patch (3.3)
(Unzip and overwrite existing program files)

hiccup

  • Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3085
To me that feels odd. When I want to see or listen to the 'live' set, I want to see the first song to be #1, not #7.
I believe that that is also how it will be written and numbered on most releases.

But the issue is kinda solved for me now if I accustom myself to using 'disc #' again (but only for releases that contain obvious sub-set releases) and imagine those numbers not to be disc numbers but sub-set numbers.

What threw me off-guard with all of this in the first place is that I was expecting that when you set 'sub–grouping', it will overrule 'track numbers'.
I now better understand that it doesn't.
Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 08:33:48 AM by psychoadept

psychoadept

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8538
Sorry, I borked your reply because I was tied and hit modify instead of quote. I mostly fixed it. And glad you worked something out.

Anyway, I'm not sure what you mean here:
 
I believe that that is also how it will be written and numbered on most releases.

I've never seen track # reset on an album except for a new disc
MusicBee Wiki
Use & improve MusicBee's documentation!

Latest beta patch (3.3)
(Unzip and overwrite existing program files)

hiccup

  • Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3085
Quote from: psychoadept

Live 'cd'
#7
#8
#9

This is what I do (well, what I have Picard do). I keep disc #, but all tracks are numbered sequentially

What I meant is that I would expect that on the box of the box-set the first track of the Live cd will be printed as #1, not as #7.
After all, it is the first song from the live set.

I assumed you meant that you will use sequential numbering all over the box-set. That would result in the first track of the Live set being #7.
But then that would differ from what's on the cd label, and the print on the box-set.
(I am probably misunderstanding you though)

Another example of how I probably do things a bit differently:



The main reason for the numbering being continuous here is the limitation of cd technology.

I would use the numbering: Jump for Joy 1-12, The Man I Love 1-12, Bonus tracks: 1-3
And then use sub-set numbering 1-3 for them.
Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 09:39:09 AM by hiccup

Zak

  • Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1737
What threw me off-guard with all of this in the first place is that I was expecting that when you set 'sub–grouping', it will overrule 'track numbers'.
I now better understand that it doesn't.

I went through all this a few months ago when I was setting up a new library to better use MusicBee's 3.x grouping features.
One thing I noticed is that it appears MusicBee will let you override sort order for tracks in Album and Tracks view, but Albums view always sorts by Disc#/Track#.

I made this post at the time:

https://getmusicbee.com/forum/index.php?topic=28460.0

Posting again here so you don't waste time trying to configure something that won't work.
Bee excellent to each other...