Author Topic: Tagging - different formats  (Read 5052 times)

junebaug

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Hello,

doing a complete new volume analysis of my music library because of the new replaygain-algorythm I found by chance that MB *writes* the new values with ID3 format (as chosen in preferences) and/but leaves APE-tags unchanged. Thus I end up with two different replaygain tags in the same file.

Now I wonder which strategy MB follows in *reading* (replaygain) tags - haven't found a preference setting for tag reading preference.

And, additionally, how do other players / hardware players deal with this. Is there a common rule which format to try first? Or what to do, when in two existing tag formats for the same tag information different values were found? Which to take then?

Maybe an option within MB could be of use, that, when it encounters a corresponding tag of an other tag format it writes the new informations there too.

Any ideas?
 Ralf

Steven

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TXXX/replaygain...  is the standard as documented in the hydrogenaudio wiki.
I have changed MB so it deletes the APE replaygain tags when it writes these tags during volume analysis (when the tagging format is set to ID3v2) so there is no confusion with differing values.
MB gives preference to the TXXX version of replaygain tags when but also reads the APE replaygain tags where no TXXX replaygain tags exist

lnminente

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FYI in case an incompatibility appears in the future: I use Mp3gainGUI, a frontend for mp3gain, and it stores the replaygain values only in the APEv2 tags. This is the capture:
Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 09:18:17 PM by lnminente

junebaug

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thank you Steven, that will help to not have divergent information in the same field of two tagging formats.

But the price for that is, that you "kill" information in an existing format, which could be there on purpose.

What is with my proposal, that if MB finds different tagging formats --> then it tries to keep them consistent.
That applies to any tag field, not only replaygain.

I just saw, that you completley kill existing APE tags also when you edit tags as artist and ID3 was chosen for tagging ...


Dunno if it makes sense to have two tagging formats active in one file. There are programs out there which will do for and cope with that. Foobar on the other side does not allow to setup tagging for ID3v2 and APE together in the settings either.


Hm, tagging is fancy

Ralf


Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 09:54:36 PM by junebug

Steven

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when ever MB writes tags to a file it "kills" conventions used by players/ taggers and I try and choose the convention that I think best fits the standard.
eg. MB reads BAND, ENSEMBLE and ALBUMARTIST but only writes ALBUMARTIST for vorbis comment tags, removing those other tags

I dont see why replay gain tags are any different if MB is updating the volume analysis values using the hydrogenaudio documented standards

junebaug

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well Steven, it is not that I see the replaygain tag something special here. It is simple a matter of not loosing information.

As I understand the matter ID3 and APE are both tagging schemes which are not part of the mp3 format itself but could be used for tagging both with no preference. APE is the more modern scheme but not that widely supported as ID3 - but has its advantages in some departements.

So I wonder why not keeping the information of both formats alive when MB founds them in a file. Maybe the user has chosen to use ID3 and APE alltogether by special needs?

I think MB reads all formats and merges the informations together with preference for ID3 if it finds tag informations in both formats for the same semantic tag field.

The actual behavior is to remove the information of the not chosen tagging format in preferences completely.

I could think of an (additional) option to not remove the information but to sync it to the other format. As to say: first gathering all information the usual way and then writing that merged informations to both formats. This way all the information would live in two tagging formats.


I'm sure I don't see all points to come in play here, I'm just like to share my thoughts.


Regards
 Ralf

Bee-liever

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Bit of a tangent, but could an APE tag user explain to me why they use APE tags on mp3 files when:
APEv1 was designed for use with Monkey's Audio format (.ape / .apl);
APEv2 was an extension of the original for use with Musepack and then adopted by WavPack, OptimFROG and Monkey's Audio;
APE tags are not designed to have images embedded in them;
APE tags can cause conflicts with ID3v2.3/2.4 tags.

I'm truly not being sarcastic here.  This is a genuine question as I am really trying to understand if any advantages exist for there use with the MP3 format.


MusicBee and my library - Making bee-utiful music together

junebaug

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To my knowledge ID3 is an extension and not an original part of mp3 either. I think these are just two different standards of tagging which could be both used for mp3-files. I'm to unexperienced to tell what's the superior plan here. From what I have read APE is the more modern format, it is more simple and flexible, it is better in the department of unicode support (languages) and some people say they would love to use APE if it would be more common and interchangable.

I'm unsure to judge which is the best format for my needs. From a practical point of view it is ID3 - cause simply my portable player does not speak APE. But within MB and for communication with other sources and being prepared best for the future etc. it could be an other choice.

That's why I like to argue from a higher level of abstraction: why not let them both live in the same file. I don't see that they would interfere technically: ID3 writes its information to the beginning of the file - APE to the end.

Though it is a problem of the players like MB who reads all standards to implement some additional logic of interpretation when i.e. in the title tags of the different formats different values of information are written (which shouldn't - but can happen, when the file comes from other sources). I think this could be solved and MB already does a good job on it. But it is not flexible as it strictly rules ID3 over APE and does not let the user decide about the preference. And it removes APE information when it writes ID3 tags - and vice versa.

So let me play a bit with that thought: I think MB could act in two ways (options):

* smart tagging (name corresponding to 'smart gain'):
1) ALL formats which are 'already in' the file will be written back with the best pool of information found in all of them (see below for the latter)
2) the format choice set in preferences will be written additionally, if not already done by 1)

* fix tagging:
1) all formats which are defined in the tag format setting under preferences will be written, again with the best pool of information found in all of the tags found
2) the options of formats in preference will be enlarged in that ID3V2.x and APE could be written both alltogether - not solely exclusive; and ID3v1 could be ticked additionally as is already realized

* Best pool of information:
MB already reads all formats in the file, merges the informations which are exclusively existent in one format and picks infomations by priority rule in case of informations are existent in more than one format for the same field.

I.e. I stumbled into this tagging issue as I noticed different replaygain settings in my files after doing a re-analysis for replaygain with the new algorithm. Other cases could be different informations of artist in the respective artist-tag of ID3 and APE; could be it is only a matter of case in writing a typo or whatsoever. To deal with this there must be a priority rule which information to trust - or to prefer.

But a program cannot tell which is the 'true' information having only the two values at hand and no mean to proof the one or other, looking into the internet for help is totally overkill here. So it could only be a 'stupid' rule of priority - as done by MB already. MB strictly rules ID3 over AVE. But it could be the case that the user 'trusts' its AVE tags more than its ID3 tags. Than the actual rule of MB is not the optimum.

Thus I can think of an option to let the user choose between the priority rules (for mp3-files):

1) ID3 over APE   
2) APE over ID3

and within ID3:
1) ID3v1 over ID3v2
2) ID3v2 over ID3v1


Well, at the end let me say, its all thinking. MB does a good job here already (with some oddities I will post in another thread in the next days) - but may be the one or other hooks on here an my thoughts could be a starter to make MB even better.

Ralf

Zak

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...being prepared best for the future etc. it could be an other choice.
To be best prepared for the future, ditch MP3 now. :P

The future is probably in AAC, FLAC and Opus (with Vorbis standing in for Opus for now).

I'm also wondering if there's still any good reason to use ID3V1 with its teeny tiny field length limits. Old car audio players perhaps? ???
Last Edit: March 18, 2014, 09:18:31 AM by Zak
Bee excellent to each other...

Bee-liever

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@ junebug
Thanks for your reply on using APE tags.
Even though ID3 is not part of MP3, it is the tagging standard that was expressly designed for them, so I'll stick with it for now.
Using APE tags on MP3's, for me, is to much like deciding Vorbis Comments is a nice, easy tagging system so we'll use that for all formats.

Maybe someday there'll be a single tagging system for all formats (maybe the EXCM tag - EXtended Cross-platform Metadata), but I won't hold my breath  ;)
MusicBee and my library - Making bee-utiful music together

Mark Morris

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Bit of a tangent, but could an APE tag user explain to me why they use APE tags on mp3 files when:
APEv1 was designed for use with Monkey's Audio format (.ape / .apl);
APEv2 was an extension of the original for use with Musepack and then adopted by WavPack, OptimFROG and Monkey's Audio;
APE tags are not designed to have images embedded in them;
APE tags can cause conflicts with ID3v2.3/2.4 tags.

I'm truly not being sarcastic here.  This is a genuine question as I am really trying to understand if any advantages exist for there use with the MP3 format.




Yes! I, along with many other professional users of MP3 files (only ever at 320kbps!!), need compatibility with radio/studio systems which invariably use APEv2. Any file tag written (or edited) by MB needs to be amended a second time, either in MP3Tag, or in the playout software. It's very time-consuming and - worse - if you forget, then the station's website shows no information when the song is played! I wonder why MB can't have the user-option to choose to write both formats when a tag is edited (as MP3Tag does)?