Request for Comments From Steve About MusicBee and Streaming Audio

[ArthurDaniels]

Hi Steve,

I have been reading various reviews in online audiophile sites, in an attempt to learn about what is important to consider when listening to  music played from digital files (WAV, FLAC, etc.).  Along the way, I have encountered a number of concepts put forth by different writers regarding what is important to achieving the best sound from digital music files.

From my reading thus far, I believe I have learned that there are at least three critical components:  Lossless Files; the player used to extract and play those files; the DAC used to convert the files to analog signals.  Obviously, the preamp and amplifier play a critical role in the final signal provided to the speakers and, of course, the speakers themselves.  However, my questions in this thread are limited to the unique devices needed to handle the digital signals and their conversion to analog signals.

Would you be so kind as to comment upon these digital-to-analog processes and, in particular, how they have influenced your design of the MusicBee file-management and playback programs.  Comments upon such topics as "bit-perfect playback"; using a computer-based software playback approach such as MusicBee versus software which might be part of a dedicated music-streaming device would be very much appreciated.

My objective in making this request is to understand what, if anything, I might be compromising by using computer-based software such as MusicBee to manage and play my digital files, as compared to using a high-quality dedicated music streaming device.

Another way of stating my interest would be to understand the relative critical nature of the role played by the file manager/player versus the DAC and downstream processing circuitry.

I am very pleased with my computer-based file management and playback approach because it offers major advantages in support of the way I want to manage my music files.  But, at the same time, I would not want to miss out on the opportunity to significantly improve the quality of the final analog signals which are being presented to my amplifier.

Perhaps other MusicBee enthusiasts might also be interested in your comments upon these topics.

Thanks for considering my request.

Art 

 

[CritterMan]

As long as you are running in an exclusive mode with no DSP effects active and the MB volume slider is all the way up, MB makes no alterations to the music read from the drive before sending it to the DAC. That's what is meant by "bit perfect." You cannot improve upon the software performance you get from MB.

Regarding the differences between hardware, only your ears can answer that for you.

[vincent kars]

 I might be compromising by using computer-based software such as MusicBee to manage and play my digital files, as compared to using a high-quality dedicated music streaming device.

Basically this boils down to is there a difference using a computer for playback or using a computer for playback this time claimed to be optimized for playing audio.
If you open the average streamer you will find all the typical computer components.
Small wonder, you need an OS (Linux most of the time), WIFi/Ethernet, USB , storage, memory , playback software, etc.

For me the question is what have they done to justify the 5000,- price tag.
I hear a lot of marketing talk (qualitative statements about ,musicality etc
I hear a lot of techno talk, separate PSU, Linear PSUs but measurements are very rare.

I expect a dedicated audio PC (sorry, music server) to beat a common PC in jitter performance and noise floor.
Have jet to see any measurement proving this.

A well designed DAC in general is reasonably independent of the source.
Use a asynchromous protocol
Use galvanic isolation and  wonder how a music server can improve on this.

[ArthurDaniels]

Thanks to both pf you for your comments.  I am running MusicBee in Exclusive Mode.  My music laptop is configured as best I know how for music playback.  I have removed or disabled all unnecessary programs on the music laptop.  I am about to begin evaluating a Cambridge Audio DAC Magic Plus, coupled with using XLR cables, as compared to my existing Peachtree Audio DaciTx, which has only standard unbalanced audio outputs.  If I can hear a significant improvement in sound, I'll implement the DAC Magic Plus - otherwise, I'll stay with the Peachtree.

I'll post comments after I complete my "AB" listening tests.

Art

[alec.tron]

Get someone to do blind-AB tests with/for you...!
If you AB yourself, there's too much other factors flowing into the decision as to why something is perceived to sound better...
Also, for fun, and if you really want to get to the truth for yourself, add a standard laptop and/or a low end/hifi mp3 player/phone into the mix, ideally even 2 of the same with different mp3 encodings (i.e. one on 320kbps and another on 192kbps or 128kbps) and see where the line in the sand actually is...
c.

[ArthurDaniels]

Get someone to do blind-AB tests with/for you...!
If you AB yourself, there's too much other factors flowing into the decision as to why something is perceived to sound better...
Also, for fun, and if you really want to get to the truth for yourself, add a standard laptop and/or a low end/hifi mp3 player/phone into the mix, ideally even 2 of the same with different mp3 encodings (i.e. one on 320kbps and another on 192kbps or 128kbps) and see where the line in the sand actually is...
c.

Some interesting ideas. but, since I never listen to MP3 or other compressed files, I think I'll pass on that suggestion.  I do agree about the subjectivity of AB listening, but because I agree, I want to perform my own tests.  "Beauty is in the ear of the listener" and I am the only one around here doing critical listening, so whatever I think sounds best will be the determining factor.  I plan to audition favorite recordings across a fairly wide spectrum of music types as I audition the DACs.

Per Critterman: "and the MB volume slider is all the way up"  Why do you suggest that the MusicBee volume slider needs to be a maximum?

Thanks,

Art

[alec.tron]

That:

"Beauty is in the ear of the listener" and I am the only one around here doing critical listening, so whatever I think sounds best will be the determining factor.

is a flawed argument when you're trying to find the 'best sound'...

Once you do AB tests just by yourself, then you (inevitably) know which source you are listening to at any given point as well; and then it's not a true test of the sound and/or 'what sounds best', but instead you are comparing/testing your subjectively perceived sound plus your own preconceptions on the topic...

Same with other consumables (food, whisky, wine, etc); once we have have to interprete the feedback from our senses and attempt to form an objective/comparative opinion about them based on our subjective impressions, your brain latches onto any bit of random information you might have additionally.... so as soon as you know what and when A or B is (a 10yo compared to a 40yo Scotch, or a Grand Cru Bordeaux VS Aldi's latest bottle of a red wine... ), that knowledge does distort the results even further, and by then it is not an objective/true test of your senses anymore or of 'how good it sounds', but mostly of how much you know about the different things being tested/compared to each other and how much you value the different aspects, essentially reinforcing/quantifying what you already believe to be true...

The mp3 in my suggestion was the extreme equivalent of what is called a 'Placebo-controlled study' in medicine... eg are you able to hear the degredation of sound of what on paper is a lower quality encoding (as it actually removes frequencies depending on encoder settings...).


c.

[CritterMan]

Per Critterman: "and the MB volume slider is all the way up"  Why do you suggest that the MusicBee volume slider needs to be a maximum?

If the MB volume slider is maxed out, it's at 0dB. Slide it down, and what you're doing is reducing volume (for example to -10dB). That's an alteration of the information being read from the drive before it reaches the DAC. If you want the software to have no effect on the digital stream, 0dB is what you want. Almost no one could find fault with reducing the volume (plenty of articles on the Internet on both sides of that argument), but you are interested in the details and I wanted to be thorough.

[ArthurDaniels]

To alec.tron:  I agree with all of your points regarding blind AB testing.  Yes, I will know which DAC I am hearing at all times.  Do I want the Cambridge Dac Magic Plus to effect a noticeable sound improvement -- certainly, otherwise I would not have purchased the unit.  Does that desire pre-dispose me to favor the Dac Magic Plus over the Peachtree DACitx -- very possibly.  However, there is an offsetting factor in play -- I already own the DACitx.  So, I can avoid spending nearly $600.00 if I decide not to keep the Dac Magic Plus and the XLR cables.  Is saving $600.00 a leveling motivator -- perhaps, or perhaps not.  But, no matter -- I enjoy the process and I'll be happy with whatever decision I make.

In my opinion, the subjectivity of this entire business of listening to music trumps all objectivity arguments.  So, I remain committed to my "beauty in the ear of the listener" concept.  But, thank you for taking the time to present your views.

To CritterMan: Thanks for providing additional comments regarding setting the MusicBee slider to zero db attenuation (max volume).  I have implemented this setting and I am using the volume control in the Windows Speaker presentation to alter volume, presumably from the DAC output.  Alternatively, I could use the volume control on my Cambridge 851A integrated amplifier, although using one of the software volume controls is much more convenient.

Happy listening,

Art

[ArthurDaniels]

The Cambridge DAC Magic Plus and the XLR Balanced Cables arrived Monday March 27.  I now have both the Dac Magic Plus with balanced outputs and the Peachtree DACiTx with unbalanced cables connected to my Cambridge 851A amplifier.  I am in the process of evaluating the sound from both DACs.  I have adjusted all available controls in both DACs to eliminate as many "settings variables" as possible.  I am using the volume control on the Cambridge 851A amplifier to vary the volume levels.  Fortunately, there is very little difference in volume levels between the two DACs, so I am able to use the same volume control setting for both DACs.

Initial results have been a little bit surprising.  When I first began listening to the DAC Magic Plus, I could not hear any significant difference when compared to the DACiTx.  However, after about 4 hours of listening time with the DAC Magic Plus, the sound emanating from the DAC Magic Plus suddenly "blossomed out".  The sound stage noticeably widened and the entire sound presentation became much brighter and more detailed.  I am in email dialogue with Cambridge technical people to inquire about possible "break-in" effects.

Whatever the cause, after the 4-hour period, I could notice differences between the DAC Magic Plus and the DACiTx -- differences which favored the DAC Magic Plus.  Perhaps I am experiencing "the placebo effect", but I don't think so.  When I listen to very specific spots in certain recordings, the DACiTx produces a more "confined" sound.  The DAC Magic Plus produces a more open and ,ore detailed sound.

I have more evaluations to perform as I listen to specific recordings and specific spots within recordings.  With both DACs connected to the 851A amplifier, I can quickly switch between DACs, making comparisons easier (easier to retain "tonal memory" from one DAC to the other).

More later.....

Art