Author Topic: Improvements for Classical Music Support  (Read 6471 times)

vincent kars

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Also I believe iTunes doesn't support flac
It doesn't .
Much to my surprise Win10 does.

For my iTunes and WMP are alike, targeted at the masses so keep it simple and even then Dunning-Kruger complains that it is to complex.
Hence I surprised they decide to support this tags.
I do hope it does generated some traction. Apple is a big player in audio so the copy cats might simply follow.


Maxxx

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I havent forgotten about this but given my work is very busy at the moment and probably January as well, it might be some time before i can get into this. I havent really read the posts in detail but my general sense is this is still not really closed out in terms of a clear set of requirements.
Keep in mind i'm not really into classical music so i dont really appreciate the issues that people have with managing this type of music to make an informed decision when people dont agree

this is what iTunes has:




I feel good, to begin with. You can manage separately classical music as Mediamonkey, with specific tags (collections)?
Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 02:27:23 PM by Maxxx

hiccup

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One thing that has come up for me (not just with classical, but it's particularly relevant there) is that for FLAC, file taggers like Picard write the performers and their roles into a PERFORMER tag which is automatically imported into MusicBee's multiple artists splitter.  But for ID3 tags they go into the TMCL and/or IPLS frames, which have to be configured as custom tags.  I think Performer should use TMCL for ID3.

Another thought I had was to have a "classical" flag in the settings page of the tag editor which would have effects like:

*including "composer" in the split Artists lists (like in column browser)

*different multiple artist splitter fields: orchestra, ensemble, soloist (including the ability to specify voice/instrument, which would dovetail with TMCL tags), chorus, choirmaster, etc.  For those who like to include ALL the performers, this would cut way down on the need for custom tags.

*turning grouping (in the tag editor) into a special composition field (I've been using grouping for composition already, but there are times when that conflicts, like when a classical CD has a disc title that I want to include - it would be better to have a TXXX/Composition in my opinion)

*showing extra date fields for date of composition and/or date of performance (ID3 does have a recording dates frame)

You've already done a great job of supporting linked tracks for playback, but the ability to automatically play all pieces of a composition from the same album/artist at the same time would be even more awesome.  The ability to see WHICH tracks are linked for playback would also be super helpful (maybe showing a list of all the tracks linked in the settings pane of the tag editor)


+1 for pretty much all that's proposed/requested here.

Steven

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I have started looking at this, starting with the iTunes classical fields. One thing to be aware of is for reasons only known to the iTunes developers, for MP3 files, they put the Work name into the ID3 grouping tag (TIT1) which MB is already using for the "Grouping" field. For M4A files, they have created a separate tag.
Also for MP3 files, for some reason they dont save a tag for "Show Movement".
The approach I am taking is to maintain consistency with Mp3Tag, ie. new dedicated tags: TXXX/WORK and TXXX/SHOWMOVEMENT for Mp3 files, so that means anyone using iTunes, the tagging wont carry across.
For M4A the tagging will be completely consistent with mp3Tag and iTunes.
I should have this aspect of classical music support done today

vzell

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I have started looking at this, starting with the iTunes classical fields. One thing to be aware of is for reasons only known to the iTunes developers, for MP3 files, they put the Work name into the ID3 grouping tag (TIT1) which MB is already using for the "Grouping" field. For M4A files, they have created a separate tag.
Also for MP3 files, for some reason they dont save a tag for "Show Movement".
The approach I am taking is to maintain consistency with Mp3Tag, ie. new dedicated tags: TXXX/WORK and TXXX/SHOWMOVEMENT for Mp3 files, so that means anyone using iTunes, the tagging wont carry across.
For M4A the tagging will be completely consistent with mp3Tag and iTunes.
I should have this aspect of classical music support done today
Musicbrainz Picard right now writes the "Work" information into the tag "TXXX/Work" (work NOT uppercased). Can you please support this case too ?
I'm using the latter since a long time and don't want to retag my whole library.

psychoadept

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Musicbrainz Picard right now writes the "Work" information into the tag "TXXX/Work" (work NOT uppercased). Can you please support this case too ?
I'm using the latter since a long time and don't want to retag my whole library.

+1
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Steven

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the itunes fields are done for the next update. TXXX/Work should load ie. the loading of custom tag id's is not case sensitive.
I have added a new function $RomanNumerals(<field>) if you want to use that format for the movement number (eg. in naming templates).
For files marked as showing classicial music, the "Title" field will display as <Work>: $RomanNumerals(<Movement>). <Movement Name>
Title is only adjusted for display - if you use Title in naming templates, nothing is changed.

I will post the updated version later or tomorrow and will give consideration to the other requests.
For the TMCL tag (music credits list), how do you think it would be used in MusicBee in a useful way?

edit:
corrected TIPL to TMCL
Last Edit: January 21, 2017, 09:51:04 AM by Steven

hiccup

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For the TMCL tag (music credits list), how do you think it would be used in MusicBee in a useful way?

I wish I had a good suggestion for that, but at this moment I for myself don't have that very clear yet. Lately I became interested in how the boys and girls at MusicBrainz approach this (they are taking such content being correct very serious), but I believe this is all still a little bit a work in progress there too.
It's not completely clear to me how this TMCL tag is to be used and filled exactly, even at MusicBrainz there seems to be some discussion and refinement going on concerning 'instrument', 'performer', 'role', etc.
But perhaps it's mainly me, still being a little bit confused, and a good suggestion on this is already possible.
Someone like psychoadept would probably be a likely candidate for some useful input on this? ...

Steven

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actually i now realise that TMCL is ID3v2.4 and TIPL is ID3v2.3
it also seems TIPL is more widely supported eg. it appears that mp3Tag only has TIPL support (I might be wrong because i dont use mp3Tag enough to be sure there isnt a way to configure it)
edit 2:
TIPL is also id3v2.4 but its id3v2.3 equivalent is IPLS

in terms of MB support, i guess it might be useful to have support in the column browser and library explorer so you can see and select from list of "artist (role or instrument)" as split out from the tag
Last Edit: January 21, 2017, 02:05:11 PM by Steven

hiccup

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Yes, TMCL is probably originally intended for musicians (performers), and TIPL for other involved people, such as perhaps producer, arranger etc.
But of course the industry and humans like us are perfectly suited to make a confusing mess of that too ;-)

Steven

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Yes, TMCL is probably originally intended for musicians (performers), and TIPL for other involved people, such as perhaps producer, arranger etc.
But of course the industry and humans like us are perfectly suited to make a confusing mess of that too ;-)
i realise that. My point is the distinction is only supported in id3 v2.4
Most people wont be using or even want to use v2.4
I would rather just go with the v2.3 compatible version and that also appears to be supported in other players/ taggers

hiccup

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Yes, TMCL is probably originally intended for musicians (performers), and TIPL for other involved people, such as perhaps producer, arranger etc.
But of course the industry and humans like us are perfectly suited to make a confusing mess of that too ;-)
i realise that. My point is the distinction is only supported in id3 v2.4
Most people wont be using or even want to use v2.4
I would rather just go with the v2.3 compatible version and that also appears to be supported in other players/ taggers

F.y.i., discussion on exactly that is currently going on at MusicBrainz concerning their Picard tagger.
Some are arguing that upcoming releases of Picard should perhaps use v2.4 set as default instead of v2.3.
Even though I would applaud it, I must accept that that probably won't happen. (and for realistic reasons to be honest)

Still, I hope we can come up with something for MusicBee that will at least present the option for MusicBee/MetaBrainz users that deliberately have chosen to use v2.4 to be able to pick the fruits from v2.4's better and enhanced implementation.

Steven

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could anyone using  Musicbrainz Picard PM me a link to a file with Involved Persons populated?
The guidelines for the format for this field seem to be inconsistent or not clear (this is the main reason i have not wanted to implement support for this tag)

psychoadept

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Sent one with the 2.4 equivalents.
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Steven

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Sent one with the 2.4 equivalents.
thanks
if anyone has any ID3 v2.3 file with Involved Persons would also be appreciated