getmusicbee.com
Support => Questions => Topic started by: jrlx on November 18, 2011, 11:01:55 PM
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Is there any way to catalog and directly play DSD files in MB? Perhaps by means of a plug-in?
Thanks in advance
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only if you can find a winamp input plugin for that format
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I didn't find any. I'm only aware of a DSD plug-in for foobar2000.
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After some research i came to the conclusion that DSD is a less popular alternative to PCM which the standard form for digital audio in computer and is used mainly in SACD's (super audio cd).
It is highly unlikely to find a plugin for this (I could't find anything as well) so the best way to get around this is to find cd ripper that supports this (assuming that we are talking about a physical source) or a converter and convert it to a format that is more popular and space conserving e.g FLAC. I can see no reason why would you want store the DSD file on your computer (correct me if I'm wrong, I am not very knowledgeable in this area) :-\
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Quick Background:
Around 30 years ago, CD was invented as a digital (PCM) format of 16 bits at 44.1 khz which at the time was thought to be "perfect sound forever". However, it turned out that theory did not work in practice, and 16/44.1 was found to be audibly inferior to higher resolution (24 bit) that made the sound smoother and less harsh sounding, and higher bitrate (96 khz or even 192 khz) that made it sound clearer and more transparent.
At the same time (1990s), Sony developed a different system with 1-bit resolution, but at a very high bitrate (2822.4 khz) that had certain advantages in creating cheap chips and using software to manipulate audio. They called this DSD, and all of the top albums on Sony-owned labels were released in DSD format (aka "SuperAudio CD", aka "SACD"). For, example, Miles Davis, Bob Dylan and The Rolling Stones albums were all released on SACD. SACD sounds perfectly transparent - I have heard master tapes in studios, and SACD sounds the same as the original master tape. (24/96 sounds great and you cannot notice the same problems as 16/44.1, but it just doesn't sound quite as transparent as SACD.)
But, in the end "earlier Sony" beat out "new Sony" - in other words, Sony's original CD specification of 16 bit and 44 khz of PCM, established PCM as a standard that could not be removed by the superior DSD.
So, now 24 bit and 96 khz is the standard for "high resolution audio" and is used on the audio of movies on Blu-Ray disc.
However, there are SACDs out there, and people want to play the better quality version when they listen to Miles or Dylan, and they want to have all their music on hard drive now. So, there are DSD ripping programs out there and foobar has a plugin to play them. There is more interest in this recently, because all the SACDs are out-of-print.
It occurred to me that a valuable - yet simple - MusicBee input plugin would be one that:
a) supports the file extension as an audio file that is part of the music library database,
and then
b) starts an external player to play those files (in this case, foobar2000).
This might be ideal for some of these more obscure audiophile formats...
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Thanks kstuart for the helpful background.
For those of us who listen to classical music there are lots of SACDs available and many new releases every month.
On the other hand there is a method for ripping SACDs based on a firmware modified Playstation 3. Only older PS3, capable of playing SACDs and older firmware versions can be used. Details on this can be found in the Computer Audiophile Forum:
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/SACD-ripping-using-your-PS3-part-2
Please note that normal CD/DVD drives and CD rippers cannot rip the DSD layer of SACDs due to the encryption techniques used by the SACD system. If you try to rip a SACD with the usual methods you'll only be able to rip the CD layer of the disc (if it is an hybrid disc, with both a CD and SACD layer).
For those who are following the PS3 ripping method, and getting the DSD files out of the SACDs, there are some options to play them:
- use foobar2000 with the DSD plug-in, to play DSD directly
- play the DSD files with specialised hardware (e.g.: Korg recorders)
- convert DSD to PCM 24/88.2 or 24/176.4 using a conversor (e.g.: Korg Audiogate)
However, it would be at least useful if MB could recognise DSD files and send them to an external player, as suggested.
The ultimate objective would be to send the DSD data unaltered directly to an AV receiver or DAC capable of decoding the native DSD data
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That is very interesting. So is DSD considered to be higher quality than lossless formats?
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That is very interesting. So is DSD considered to be higher quality than lossless formats?
Most people cannot distinguish between 128k encoded MP3s and FLACs expecially without the use of audiophile-grade equipment. I would imagine the difference between PCM and DSD to be virtually non-existent to any human ear...
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That is very interesting. So is DSD considered to be higher quality than lossless formats?
"Lossless" means that there is no loss of sound quality due to compression - the word literally means "without loss".
"Lossey" compression is where there is loss of sound quality due to compression. A good lossey method (called a "codec") will lose the least important parts of the file, when compressing to a smaller file size. But, the more compression, the more audible the loss.
Lossey compression includes:
- MP3 and WMA and AAC audio formats as used by portable players
- MPEG1 and MPEG2 video formats as used by VCD, DVD and Blu-Ray and TV
- MPEG4 video formats as used by Blu-Ray and TV and portable players
Lossless compressions includes FLAC, APE, DSD and ALAC audio formats as well as WAV as found on audio CDs.
Note: All digital video is lossey, there is no lossless digital video, as the filesizes would be too large. So, the common myth "Don't ruin a lossless DVD by converting it to MPEG4" is wrong, as DVD is lossey.
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That is very interesting. So is DSD considered to be higher quality than lossless formats?
Most people cannot distinguish between 128k encoded MP3s and FLACs expecially without the use of audiophile-grade equipment.
That is certainly true, just as most people cannot tell the difference between Chateau Lafite Rotshchild and Two Buck Chuck, and most people cannot really tell the difference between a Corvette and the latest Ferrari.
But, your sentence can be reduced to "Most people cannot distinguish low-quality and audiophile-quality, especially without the use of audiophile-grade equipment" is also true because of the equipment aspect. This is the same as saying that no one can tell the difference between a Ford Escort and a Ferrari when stuck in a 10 mph traffic jam, which is also true.
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"Lossless" means that there is no loss of sound quality due to compression - the word literally means "without loss".
"Lossey" compression is where there is loss of sound quality due to compression. A good lossey method (called a "codec") will lose the least important parts of the file, when compressing to a smaller file size. But, the more compression, the more audible the loss.
Yeah, you got me there, haha. I guess that was worded stupidly. But then why can't you convert the files to FLAC?
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"Lossless" means that there is no loss of sound quality due to compression - the word literally means "without loss".
"Lossey" compression is where there is loss of sound quality due to compression. A good lossey method (called a "codec") will lose the least important parts of the file, when compressing to a smaller file size. But, the more compression, the more audible the loss.
Yeah, you got me there, haha. I guess that was worded stupidly. But then why can't you convert the files to FLAC?
You can convert them to flac. As jrix said earlier in this thread:
convert DSD to PCM 24/88.2 or 24/176.4 using a conversor (e.g.: Korg Audiogate)
All FLAC files use the PCM technique "Pulse Code Modulation" (as do APE and WAV files).
Since DSD is slightly better quality than existing PCM files, then there is a slight quality loss, but since 24/88.2 is really outstanding quality already, doing the conversion could be a practical way to go.
But at the moment, all DSD related software is rare.
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I'll start a new thread if my response here does not cause it to percolate up to the top for a while...
Since this thread was last responded to a couple of years ago, some significant advances have taken place in the field of DSD playback. First of all, a general consensus has emerged among those at the bleeding edge of the high end that DSD does indeed sound better than even the highest resolution PCM. However, the reasons for this remain subject to ongoing discussion. Nonetheless, the fact is that DAC manufacturers are today falling over themselves to introduce DSD capability to their DACs. Channel Classics, who record everything in DSD, has taken the plunge and is now selling huge chunks of their (classical) catalog in downloadable DSD format. The end-game here seems to be multi-channel.
Anyway, the OP's original questions needs to be addressed in the light of today's technological State-of-the-Union. Head on over to ComputerAudiophile.com which is humming with DSD activity. I for one have over 50 DSD albums already, and would like to import them into MusicBee if for no other reason than that I use MusicBee to manage the metadata of my 30,000+ song catalog.
MusicBee has an absolutely killer reference-standard metadata editing and managing capability. Even if playback were to remain problematic (and today, it needn't be), the ability to edit DSD metadata would be both desirable, and, as best as I can tell, quite unique.
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MusicBee is great software, but it is designed for the best possible visual experience foremost, and then the best possible audio with those visuals. The web site you mentioned has discussions of other players used by audiophiles that have sophisticated DSD support (not foobar, whose designer is anti-audiophile).
Out of respect for MusicBee's designer, I won't talk about any competing players, just read that site if you are interested in players with DSD support.
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The BASS. library now supports a DSD plugin which i have added to musicbee.
The DSD rate is displayed in the Now Playing panel. As far as tags go, MB reads ID3v2 tags (i especially would like some feedback this is OK), but for now doesnt support writing tags.
I have tested this on some freely downloadable DSD files bit I would appreciate any confirmation its working OK so i can report back to the bass developer
http://musicbee.niblseed.com/V2_5/MusicBee_Exe_Patched.zip
unzip and replace the existing files where MB is installed
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Hi Steven,
First of all, thank you so much for implementing DSD support! I had to use foobar to play my DSD files (only 0.5% of my collection, but still :-)).
So, all of my DSD files now show up in my inbox. However, it does not appear as if MB is recognizing the metadata. According to MP3tag, my DSD metadata is in ID3v2.3, but it is not showing up in MB (and is recognized by foobar).
Let me know if I can provide any additional data.
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can you PM me a link to one of the files?
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sorry about replying to my own post ;-). MB does recognize that it is a DSD64 or DSD128 file with correct bitrate, samplerate, & duration, and also recognizes embedded artwork, but no ID3v2.3 metadata.
EDIT: DSD sample rate in MB is incorrect. Samplerate should be 2.8MHz for DSD64 and 5.6MHz for DSD128. MB shows 88 KHz samplerate, and this is what my DAC sees (LH Labs Geek Out).
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for the tags, i can see MB needs to change where it looks so i will address that
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Ok I just tested this by adding a DSF file to MusicBee, fully tagged with Mp3tag, and MusicBee doesn't recognize any of the metadata, however the file does play properly.
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http://musicbee.niblseed.com/V2_5/MusicBee_Exe_Patched.zip
- tags for DSD files should now be correctly read
- re: the sample rate, for the source file sample rate, you multiply by 44100 eg. DSD64 = 2822400 kHz. The 88.2 number is the output sample rate
- according to the BASS developer for now, only decoding to PCM is supported. He will look at enhancing the ASIO handling to detect ASIO devices that can natively decode DSD files and send the file as a DSD file but he is not promising this will be done. I am not sure what advantage playing the DSD file natively would give as PCM is lossless anyway
- when converting the sound ito PCM, the samplerate used is 88.2. In my view thats a sensible output rate but it can be set higher eg. 176400 or 352800. But what do other players use?
edit:
trying now with foobar, its using 88.2 for PCM sample rate - not sure if it supports sending the file as a native DSD file to appropriate devices
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http://musicbee.niblseed.com/V2_5/MusicBee_Exe_Patched.zip
- tags for DSD files should now be correctly read
- re: the sample rate, for the source file sample rate, you multiply by 44100 eg. DSD64 = 2822400 kHz. The 88.2 number is the output sample rate
- according to the BASS developer for now, only decoding to PCM is supported. He will look at enhancing the ASIO handling to detect ASIO devices that can natively decode DSD files and send the file as a DSD file but he is not promising this will be done. I am not sure what advantage playing the DSD file natively would give as PCM is lossless anyway
- when converting the sound ito PCM, the samplerate used is 88.2. In my view thats a sensible output rate but it can be set higher eg. 176400 or 352800. But what do other players use?
edit:
trying now with foobar, its using 88.2 for PCM sample rate - not sure if it supports sending the file as a native DSD file to appropriate devices
Thanks for the update. I don't mean to sound like a buzzkill here, but there isn't much of a reason to use DSD files unless they can be played back natively, since the format was designed specifically for its "bit perfect" playback chain. PCM can sound almost as good, but never quite the same. As to whether or not the average person will notice the difference, that's for another discussion.
Foobar is able to play DSD natively, instructions found here: http://www.audiostream.com/content/how-play-dsd-file-using-foobar2000
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Hi Steven,
First of all, thanks for your fix. MB now recognizes DSD tags.
Secondly, I agree with Alumni - the whole point of DSD support should be to play it natively. From what I understand, the DSD -> PCM conversion is not lossless. Whether it is audible is another question.
There are multiple other players that do support native DSD playback: foobar (with plugins), Jriver, Audiovana (Mac).
Anyway, thanks again for your support and a wonderful player!
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the bass developer has enhanced the DSD plugin so
- DSD-over-PCM data (DOP) can be sent to the device - this will require a new configuration setting in MB so you tell MB your device supports it
- raw DSD data to asio devices - it appears that BASS can make an automatic detection if the device supports it but its not completely clear
- in both cases any equaliser, DSP or volume leveling adjustments cant be made (or if they are made then the DSD file will be converted to PCM as now)
I will try and make the changes on the weekend
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Hi Steven,
Thank you once again! I'd be happy to test any changes :-).
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Hi
Does this change must operate with dsf files ? (currently , with the patch my tag files are not identified).
Thanks for the work...
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tags (ID3v2) are read from DSF files only
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Thanks for your answer
I'm stupid, I did not rescan the files...
Now it works !!!
Good job.
Can I use the Volume Analyzer (Album Gain) too ?
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not for now - MB only supports reading tags, not writing. I am not sure when i will do that
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unzip and replace the existing files where MB is installed:
http://musicbee.niblseed.com/V2_5/MusicBee_Exe_Patched.zip
This version plays the raw DSD files to ASIO devices, but only when you have no equaliser/ sound effects or replay gain active and only if the ASIO device supports the sample rate of the DSD file. If any is not true then the DSD file is converted to PCM at 88.2kHz
I cant test this myself so i would appreciate feedback either way that its working. Also its not clear to me that the BASS library is able to accurately auto-detect when the ASIO device does support decoding native DSD data
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Hi Steven,
I tried out the new MB version, and unfortunately, it is still converting DSD to 88.2 kHz PCM. Just to verify: I turned off all effects in "Preferences -> Player -> Sound Effects", and no equalizer / dsp is selected. I also verified that the same DSD files are received as DSD files when using foobar2000 with foo_dsd_asio.dll plugin.
Let me know if I can provide any additional information, and thanks again for a great player.
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you might also need the latest bass.dll file - replace the existing one in the MB folder
http://www.mediafire.com/download/gczhw123y2hbhqm/bass.dll
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Hi Steven,
unfortunately, even with the new bass.dll, MB is still converting to DSD to 88.2 PCM. Thanks for your quick response on a Saturday :-).
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i have taken out the sample rate check on the device. If it still forces PCM then i would need someone to run a debug version
http://musicbee.niblseed.com/V2_5/MusicBee_Exe_Patched.zip
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Hi Steven,
something really broke in that latest release (2.5.5433). When I play a DSD file, I only hear white noise, and my DAC reports the incoming file is 352.8 khz PCM. I did a quick test of some other PCM files, and MB does correctly play 44.1 PCM and 192 PCM.
Let me know how I can help further.
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i've made one more attempt at this:
http://musicbee.niblseed.com/V2_5/MusicBee_Exe_Patched.zip
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I just tried putting my mode back on ASIO but it won't play anything, gives a BASS error.
I'm assuming that WASAPI is not sufficient for DSD playback? (my DAC is ASIO compatible)
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Hi Steven,
OK, I have some mixed progress to report with the latest MB build. DSD files still sound like white noise when output=ASIO, but my DAC is recognizing a DSD file. However, then MB locks up, and won't play anything (PCM or DSD). Here is the sequence of steps I ran:
play 44.1 PCM (OK)
play DSD64 (DAC recognizes DSD, white noise playback, MB locks up. I have to kill MB, disconnect and reconnect my DAC, and re-start MB to play music again).
Also, this is probably not important now, but MB is sending DSD64 and DSD128 files as DSD64.
Let me know if I can provide any additional information.
P.S. if output = WASAPI, MB converts DSD to 88.2 PCM (and they play just fine)
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please try again - unzip and replace the existing files:
http://musicbee.niblseed.com/V2_5/MusicBee_Exe_Patched.zip
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Hi Steven,
I'm sorry to report that I'm experiencing the same "white noise" for DSD files with the latest version (5436). Thank you so much for your perseverence.
Frank
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in that case i will remove support for playing native DSD files and revert to having them converted to PCM as before
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I'm sorry that you couldn't get native DSD support going, but I do want to thank you for your great support!
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does this version make any difference?
http://musicbee.niblseed.com/V2_5/MusicBee_Exe_Patched.zip
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Hi Steven,
Nope - same 'white noise' problem with DSD files, and then MB locks up. The version number is 5436 - is this supposed to be different from the last version?
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could you try this version:
http://musicbee.niblseed.com/V2_5/MusicBee_Exe_Patched.zip
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Hi Steven,
Same white noise problem with DSD file - version 5437. sigh...
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that was the last of my ideas. Unless the bass developer himself comes back and says its something he has done wrong, the native dsd support is now be removed ie, will play as PCM
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I really appreciate all your efforts - at least we'll be able to recognize and manage DSD files...
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Hi Steven,
Thanks for this. currently playing .dff with no problems. Only Pcm I take it, but I don't have to use WMP anymore!
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Bass has posted an update to the DSD add-on
www.un4seen.com/stuff/bassdsd.zip (updated: 11 Dec '14)
Would this solve the problem?
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i am aware of the update but i have spent a lot of time already on trying to get DSD files to play natively (they should work fine output as PCM) so at the moment i am not willing to do anything more
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i am aware of the update but i have spent a lot of time already on trying to get DSD files to play natively (they should work fine output as PCM) so at the moment i am not willing to do anything more
Well I certainly appreciate your efforts. I didn't know MusicBee was supporting DSD until a little while ago. Perhaps easier implementation methods can be discovered in the future (I hope). As for PCM conversions as someone mentioned does sorta defeat the purpose of DSD. But for the sake of convenience its still nice to have. Perhaps though more sample rate options could be added for those who have the hardware. 176.4khz (SACD) & 352khz (DXD) just to keeps things to highest standard currently available.
Again thanks for adding the support. I will be showing my appreciation with a donation.
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My testing gives following results:
Playing of DSD files is done correct. The DAC has a color LED to indicate played modus. The color information is correct for the format played.
Information of DSD file is not correct I think. I thought it would display sample rates in the mHz range.
Display in MB for DSD 64, 128 and 256 all 88 kHz sample rate. Next the kbps indication is different for these 3 formats.
For the same track these are the numbers:
DSD 64: DSF 88kHz 5456k
DSD 128: DSF 88 KhZ 11290K
DSD 256: DSF 88 kHz 22580k
I also tested DXD 24 bit 352 kHz This plays correct and gives correct information
Also with the same track
DXD: FLAC 352 kHz 11094k
I used the top track from this list http://www.2l.no/hires/ because it is available in all formats.
Reagrds
Jos Wouters
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Hi Joe,
MusicBee converts DSD to 88.2khz PCM, as you have noted. MB does not support native DSD - maybe Steven will consider supporting DoP (DSD over PCM) in the future????
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I'm not sure what wout31 is trying to say by "Playing of DSD files is done correct", as its definitely not a native transport to the DAC.
But frankcreed is right, that DoP is another good alternative.
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A year later. I'm wonder if there has been or will be any further improvements to DSD support?
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I am willing to spend time on this again. Anyone who has a device with native DSP support, please let me know they can test this
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I am willing to spend time on this again. Anyone who has a device with native DSP support, please let me know they can test this
Hi,
I have just got the Xduoo ta-10, which I think qualifies to test DSD playback, and I am willing to help you testing this feature.
As I can see, SACD files are mostly available in ISO format.
I am using now the new windows USB 2.0 audio driver, I am not sure if that supports native DSD playback.
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Hello Steven, I can test the DSD files on TEAC AI-301DA (https://teac.jp/int/product/ai-301da/top). In latest version of MusicBee (3.1.6512) the DSD files are converted to 88,2kHz. In TEAC HR Audio Player it plays natively in ex. 2,8Mhz.
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Great. I'll look to have something ready for testing by the end of the weekend.
While i think of it, when testing you should not have any equaliser or DSP plugin enabled as that will alter the data sent. So in that case MB disables DSD raw mode.
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https://www.dropbox.com/s/q9gkx6dpkc6utqy/MusicBeeTestDsd.zip?dl=1
unzip and replace the existing musicbee.exe file
In the Player Settings panel, when ASIO is selected as the output mode, click the Configure button and you can set the bit-streaming mode for DSD files.
- default is PCM which means MB converts the data to PCM which allows equaliser, dsp, tempo control, resampling etc
- raw DSD: The ASIO device must natively support DSD data. When selected, if you have any equaliser, dsp enabled then MB will switch to PCM mode because the sound data cannot be modified in any way
- DOP: Some devices support DSD over PCM bit format, which is also bit-perfect. As with raw DSD, the sound data cannot be modified in any way so MB will switch to PCM if necessary.
For this version, MB will log info to the error log. Even if you think its working can you check the error log and send me the recent info logged at the end of the file
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I’ve tried it for 5 min and when I set raw DSD the songs seem to be playing, but "terrible squeaking" sound came from the speakers. But the TEAC Control Panel showed right frequency - 2.8MHz. When I switched to DoP I heard only noise. In both case equaliser and DSP were off. I’ll test it better when I come back from work.
PS. Where can I find the error log file?
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help/ support/ view error log
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For some reason I can not select ASIO for my device (Xduoo ta-10 - this ought to support ASIO, if I remember correctly I have used it before). I have a Focusrite saffire too, for which I can select ASIO, but that is not a DSD capable device.
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So I tried it little more and my findings are:
Stream DSD data as PCM (DOP) - plays 176,400Hz - seems OK now - ErrorLog:
13.11.2017 16:38:03 - codec=Dsd,bit stream=2,decode=False,eq=False,dsp=False,resample=0,upmix=0,tempo=0
13.11.2017 16:38:03 - bit stream set=2
13.11.2017 16:38:22 - codec=Dsd,bit stream=2,decode=False,eq=False,dsp=False,resample=0,upmix=0,tempo=0
13.11.2017 16:38:22 - bit stream set=2
Stream raw DSD data - doesn’t work - ErrorLog:
13.11.2017 16:40:00 - codec=Dsd,bit stream=1,decode=False,eq=False,dsp=False,resample=0,upmix=0,tempo=0
13.11.2017 16:40:00 - try set device dsd raw=1
13.11.2017 16:40:00 - bit stream set=1
13.11.2017 16:40:00 - set dsd rate param=True,channels=2
13.11.2017 16:40:03 - codec=Dsd,bit stream=1,decode=False,eq=False,dsp=False,resample=0,upmix=0,tempo=0
13.11.2017 16:40:03 - try set device dsd raw=1
13.11.2017 16:40:03 - bit stream set=1
13.11.2017 16:40:03 - set dsd rate param=True,channels=2
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according to the results, your device should be able to play the file in raw DSD mode. Could you let me know the file extension of the file you tried?
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It is .DSF file from eshop nativedsd.com. I also tried Jriver Media Player and it works perfect. On the other hand Foobar2000 works well only in DOP mode, with raw DSD there was only silence.
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could you try this version and if it still doesnt work for DSD Raw, there is one more thing i can try. Nothing is logged now
https://www.dropbox.com/s/q9gkx6dpkc6utqy/MusicBeeTestDsd.zip?dl=1
unzip and replace the existing musicbee.exe file
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Nothing changed, raw DSD is not working.
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if this doesnt work i wont spend any more time trying to get raw working - it might just be something about your device given foobar also doesnt work
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i split the error to a separate bug report topic
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Just registered to say this: AMAZING DEV! I was looking for a high sound quality / resolution audio player, and everyone but a few musicbee fans pointed me to foobar2k. Stumbled on this thread, and i am just stunned how great the dev is supporting this community in this feature request! I am getting myself familiar with Musicbee, and i dont think to look back. Kudos for not only making the windows music player with best UI (modern, easy still many config options), but also with support for state of the art technical base. Seems all others are outdated and far behind, or with much less active development and support.
Sorry for off topic, but it needed to be said! ;)
On topic: To all those who say supporting such audiophile stuff isnt important: It is a huge trend for audiophile music, hardware and software, with many newbies and "converts" like me to come in the next time and years.
Sorry again for off topic! :)
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Since DSD is slightly better quality than existing PCM files, then there is a slight quality loss, but since 24/88.2 is really outstanding quality already, doing the conversion could be a practical way to go.
Yeah I agree and that's what I'm doing with all high-resolution audio files: convert to FLAC and edit tags freely and apply ReplayGain tags.
But there are some limitations with MB at the moment in terms of helping managing and organizing those files.
1. <Kind> and <Channels> properties display is wrong for DSF files: it shows them as "mp3" and "stereo" for multi-channel DSF files.
2. Support <Bit Depth> field as it already shows for FLAC 24-bit file in file properties tab of tag editor.
3. Show ISO files in the main panel to help managing and organizing SACD-ISO files (also to send them to external tools).
4. Writing tags to DSF files would be great (but unless it could do volume analysis for those, I will still convert to FLAC).
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I just want to report that Musicbee version 3.2 (3.2.6555) *DOES* send DSD over PCM (DOP) files that *are* recognized as DSD files by my DAC (LH Labs Geek Out), both DSD64 and DSD128.
Thanks Steven!! :D
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thanks for the confirmation its working for DOP.
It would be good for someone to report the DSD raw is working (if your asio device supports it of course)
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I confirm, Musicbee 3.2 (3.2.655) working with Dop
Tried in RAW, no go. My DAC switched to DSD but got only some kind of white noise.
Teac UD-501 on Windows 8.1 x64.
Raw works fine with Teac player.
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Gave this a try on my Shanling M2s.
No go on DoP, just staticy noise with very faint music in the background. The M2s did show a dsd64 lock (dsf file)
Oh well, can't win them all ;)
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Since DSD is slightly better quality than existing PCM files, then there is a slight quality loss, but since 24/88.2 is really outstanding quality already, doing the conversion could be a practical way to go.
Yeah I agree and that's what I'm doing with all high-resolution audio files: convert to FLAC and edit tags freely and apply ReplayGain tags.
But there are some limitations with MB at the moment in terms of helping managing and organizing those files.
1. <Kind> and <Channels> properties display is wrong for DSF files: it shows them as "mp3" and "stereo" for multi-channel DSF files.
2. Support <Bit Depth> field as it already shows for FLAC 24-bit file in file properties tab of tag editor.
3. Show ISO files in the main panel to help managing and organizing SACD-ISO files (also to send them to external tools).
4. Writing tags to DSF files would be great (but unless it could do volume analysis for those, I will still convert to FLAC).
Update on this: I am no longer converting DSF files to FLAC as I found out foobar supports writing all tags including ReplayGain tags with volume analysis on these files.
- <Kind> tag is still wrong showing "mp3" for DSF files. Though it correctly shows "DFF" for DFF files what's expected to see for this tag would be "DSD64" or 'DSD128".
- <Channels> tag is working correctly showing multi-channels as 5 Channel or 5.1 properly.
- <Bit Depth> field is still missing.
- For SACD ISO files, a foobar component supports tagging and playback without splitting to individual files whereas MB can't even detect them as audio files.
- Foobar can play DFF files and show their tags (even though editing is not possible) while MB can't play them showing no tags.
- Still no support for writing tags and volume analysis for DSF files.
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I am surprised MB cant play your DFF files as mine play fine. Regarding tags, none of mine show any in foobar and MB doesnt attempt anything so I dont have any file to look at. If you are able to point me to a weblink with a tagged DFF file i will have a look
I am willing to spend time supporting writing tags to DSF files (reading is already supported)
Kind will be fixed for the next update, bit-depth probably but i dont have a 24-bit file to test with.
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PMed one DFF file and one 24-96 FLAC file for your test. The DFF files is a DST compressed one, so maybe that's the difference.
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I confirm that the bass library cant play the DFF file you sent but foobar can. I also tried with xm-play, so i will the file to the bass developer to see if he will look into it.
I noticed foobar didnt show any tags for the DFF file (as I would expect). Was there a specific plugin setting you needed to enable for that to work?
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I just tested and you're right. It's what foo_input_sacd component is doing: https://sourceforge.net/projects/sacddecoder/
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Kind will be fixed for the next update, bit-depth probably but i dont have a 24-bit file to test with.
Both foobar($info(bitspersample)) and mp3tag(%_bitspersample%) supports configuring a separate Bit Depth column that shows Bits per Sample info for all files. Currently MB only adds "24-bit" to the property tab of tag editor.
Also the both programs show "DSD64" for codec rather than "DSF" that MB currently shows.
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Also the both programs show "DSD64" for codec rather than "DSF" that MB currently shows.
the codec information and DSD source sample rate are displayed only in the track info panel for the playing track only. I doubt i will enhance that for display in the main panel.
This has support for editing/ saving DSD file tags as ID3v2:
http://musicbee.niblseed.com/V3_2/MusicBee32_Patched.zip
edit:
I will also look to add reading of artist and title from DFF files which is a documented standard.
For the DFF file you sent, it looks like ID3 tags have been appended to the end of the file but from what I can gather thats not really a valid thing to do for DFF files - that could be the reason that BASS doesnt play the file
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Thanks for the improvement!
I just ran volume analysis for couple of DSD albums and it looks like the average RG values are 5-6 dB lower than those from foobar. Can you replicate this?
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i do recall there being a bass setting to bump the volume by 6dB as by default DSD files play at 6dB lower than the original sound data so i will look into that
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That 6 dB issue looks quite complicated, but from listening thru PCM MB's current RG values sound right when compared with the same source in FLAC files. So why not just leave it as is?
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this has support for reading DFF file tags (artist/title for the official tags if present and also handles reading ID3 tags)
http://musicbee.niblseed.com/V3_2/MusicBee32_Patched.zip
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For files larger than 2 GB, MB doesn't show their size correctly nor sorts them properly. The red-highlighted files are all larger than 2 GB, but MB shows "N/A" for size unlike other files and sorting is inconsistent.
(https://i.imgur.com/uMk2jyt.png)
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are they DFF files or a particular file extension?
I am not seeing any reason for this bug. Perhaps try rescanning the files in question
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They are all DSF files and rescanning makes no differences. For some reason MB can show for some and cannot for others.
Can you support the same format like "2.4 GB" for files larger than 2 GB? Perhaps that might make differences.
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try rescanning again but if it doesnt help then i wont spend more time on it:
http://musicbee.niblseed.com/V3_2/MusicBee32_Patched.zip
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It's become worse. It now shows "N/A" for most files larger than 2 GB.
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could you redownload and try again
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Yep, that fixed it. Thanks!
(https://i.imgur.com/C1iUJnx.png)
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The Music Center for PC from Sony is next application which fully support native DSD with TEAC AI-301DA. But from the user experience this app is not as good as the MusicBee. Actually it’s sucks :D I really hope that Steven will figure out what causing the problem with broken native DSD playing within the MusicBee.
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Not sure if this helps, but I downloaded the Bassasio component from un4seen.com (https://www.un4seen.com/download.php?bassasio13) and tried the "dsdtest.exe" in the archive to play some DSF file and it works flawlessly in raw DSD.
(https://imgur.com/VAhvdsx.png)
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i noticed there is a more recent bassdsd.dll file available, so could you try replacing the existing one in the folder where MB is installed
http://www.mediafire.com/file/bsbh6sc3peziwf7/bassdsd.dll
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I’ve already tried that yesterday, but it didn’t help. The "dsdtest.exe" works same with "bassdsd.dll" version 2.4.0.2 and 2.4.1.2.
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Sample rate for DSD files is incorrectly displayed.
(https://i.imgur.com/mbVOPhO.png)
All DSD files have sample rate of 2822400 Hz. Try with Mp3tag and foobar.
Another issue is inconsistent format.
It shows 44.1 kHz and 48 kHz, then why not 88.2 kHz instead of 88 kHz?
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I am getting the sample rate from the bass api but in any case i see what you say is true so i will override it. You will need to rescan the relevant files
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Dear Steven, I'm afraid the problem persists: DSF files will be played at 88khz (my dacs display reports 88khz playback rate)
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The sample rate field is the sample rate of the source data, not the playback rate.
For DSD, unless you have configured the ASIO output mode for native DSD format, the DSD data is converted to PCM at the appropriate sample rate
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Ok but the source of that particular sample is not 88k.
You can listen and see with your eyes, sample on the following page (DSD64 played as 88k on latest musicbee, no matter what): https://www.oppodigital.com/hra/dsd-by-davidelias.aspx
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Ok but the source of that particular sample is not 88k.
You can listen and see with your eyes, sample on the following page (DSD64 played as 88k on latest musicbee, no matter what): https://www.oppodigital.com/hra/dsd-by-davidelias.aspx
What version of MB are you running?
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3.2.6715
but that is not the only weird things that happens. For example, with my dac there is no way i can use wasapi until i skip time with the playing seekbar, while on other programs that it wont happen. Then you'll say to use other programs. I'm sorry but to me, musicbee is the best for organizing music, its immense configuration, leaves the other far away...
EDIT: crossfading removed, for the moment seems to work
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Hi I'm loving the organisation of this player. I have tried installing the beta update and selected ASIO then when i choose DSD native it tells me 'The ASIO device does not seem to support raw DSD data output". When I select DOP it plays OK. In Foobar I can play DSD and PCM and upsample them to 11.2Mhz through my ASIO driver and/or DSD: WASAPI plugin. Would love to see something similar here.
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my dac ONLY support DSD data as PCM (DOP) -
but musicbee some time send noise when i configure output DSD data as PCM (DOP)
other times works well recogniced but when a song finish musicbee crash and close
i configure musicbee dsd raw and the dac display
"DSD 3.87mhg etc
something ia wrong in musicbee
i test my foobar2k and it play ok
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its probably best you use foobar for your requirements or use "Convert to PCM" in the ASIO settings
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Just two days ago musicbee works properly
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Just two days ago musicbee works properly
You must've done -something- that caused the change. In any event, Steven has given you two suggestions to help with the issue.
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Just two days ago musicbee works properly
You must've done -something- that caused the change. In any event, Steven has given you two suggestions to help with the issue.
yes i done something. i update musicbee to the last version
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DSD files play easily on my Topping DX3 pro usb DAC. I choose Asio + topping USB , stream raw dsd and voila, it's written 2.82 dsd on the dac, and it sound like it .
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I listen to streaming radio in DSD512 format.
DSD512 files are easy to play on my Topping DX3 pro usb DAC. I choose ASIO + foo_dsd_asio.
(ASIOProxyInstall-0.9.4.exe)
Asio Proxy 0.9.4
Audio Device: Topping USB Audio Device
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Inpput_|__Output_|_Converter _|_ Sample $ Hold_|_DSD Mode
-------------------------------------------------- ---------------
44100_|_DSD512_|_SDM typeD_|__NOTE_______|___DSD
...
...
Yiri
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I listen to streaming radio in DSD512 format.
DSD512 files are easy to play on my Topping DX3 pro usb DAC. I choose ASIO + foo_dsd_asio.
(ASIOProxyInstall-0.9.4.exe)
Asio Proxy 0.9.4
Audio Device: Topping USB Audio Device
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Inpput_|__Output_|_Converter _|_ Sample $ Hold_|_DSD Mode
-------------------------------------------------- ---------------
44100_|_DSD512_|_SDM typeD_|__NOTE_______|___DSD
...
...
Yiri
I am confused...are you saying you are using a foobar plugin in musicbee or you are using foobar?