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Support => Bug Reports => Topic started by: SonicRings on November 07, 2021, 07:00:15 AM

Title: Saving any settings in a file, even just a volume adjustment, writes ENCODER tag
Post by: SonicRings on November 07, 2021, 07:00:15 AM
I've been noticing this issue ever since I started using MusicBee where adjusting the volume of a track would update its date modified value. I didn't know how or why, since the audio data remained the same.

I just now realized that the reason for this change in date is because MusicBee forcibly write an ENCODER tag (in this case with a value of "reference libFLAC 1.2.1 20070917") any time you save the properties of a file.

I don't want it to save or modify any tags if I don't tell it to save or modify any tags.

(https://i.imgur.com/XxJMCIz.png)

Doing the above will replicate this behaviour: open a track's properties, then adjust its volume before hitting save.

Below are my settings for Tags (2):

(https://i.imgur.com/18EdWn3.png)
Title: Re: Saving any settings in a file, even just a volume adjustment, writes ENCODER tag
Post by: Steven on November 07, 2021, 07:41:28 AM
Yes thats the expected behaviour when any tags are written. Some people dont like it but its not a bug
Title: Re: Saving any settings in a file, even just a volume adjustment, writes ENCODER tag
Post by: SonicRings on November 07, 2021, 07:44:15 AM
Yes thats the expected behaviour when any tags are written. Some people dont like it but its not a bug

Is there a way to make it not do this? I consider it a bug. I didn't tell it to write the ENCODER tag: it did so on its own. It's not a matter of preference here. When I tell it to adjust volume, I expect no other aspect of the track to be changed. I don't "expect" it to write the ENCODER tag.

And on top of that, I'm not even writing any tags. I'm adjusting the playback volume.

As it stands now, I have to first make a copy of the track, then adjust the volume, and then finally replace the original with the copy I just made.
Title: Re: Saving any settings in a file, even just a volume adjustment, writes ENCODER tag
Post by: Bee-liever on November 09, 2021, 12:38:41 AM
And on top of that, I'm not even writing any tags. I'm adjusting the playback volume.
You do know that by adjusting the playback volume, you are are actually writing a tag.
Title: Re: Saving any settings in a file, even just a volume adjustment, writes ENCODER tag
Post by: SonicRings on November 09, 2021, 12:51:13 AM
And on top of that, I'm not even writing any tags. I'm adjusting the playback volume.
You do know that by adjusting the playback volume, you are are actually writing a tag.
Which tag? I tested with adjusting the volume and restoring a backup of the file, and the volume remained adjusted.
Title: Re: Saving any settings in a file, even just a volume adjustment, writes ENCODER tag
Post by: phred on November 09, 2021, 03:00:50 AM
Which tag?
Use the Tag Inspector to see the actual tags.
(http://i.imgur.com/2tKn9Yvl.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/2tKn9Yv.jpg)
Title: Re: Saving any settings in a file, even just a volume adjustment, writes ENCODER tag
Post by: SonicRings on November 09, 2021, 03:22:15 AM
Which tag?
Use the Tag Inspector to see the actual tags.
(http://i.imgur.com/2tKn9Yvl.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/2tKn9Yv.jpg)
Here is a screenshot of the tag inspector before making any changes:

(https://i.imgur.com/qDultdp.png)

And MP3Tag:

(https://i.imgur.com/LkjoiRl.png)

Here is a screenshot of the tag inspector after adjusting the volume up by 20%:

(https://i.imgur.com/wfwyehZ.png)

And MP3Tag:

(https://i.imgur.com/xw7w9eG.png)

What you're looking at is replaygain.
Title: Re: Saving any settings in a file, even just a volume adjustment, writes ENCODER tag
Post by: Bee-liever on November 09, 2021, 04:19:21 AM
And on top of that, I'm not even writing any tags. I'm adjusting the playback volume.
You do know that by adjusting the playback volume, you are are actually writing a tag.
Which tag? I tested with adjusting the volume and restoring a backup of the file, and the volume remained adjusted.
For mp3s it's RAV2 or RAVD (I think), for FLAC it writes to the database as vorbis doesn't really support volume adjustment. Either way it's the equivalent of writing a tag
Title: Re: Saving any settings in a file, even just a volume adjustment, writes ENCODER tag
Post by: SonicRings on November 09, 2021, 04:21:24 AM
And on top of that, I'm not even writing any tags. I'm adjusting the playback volume.
You do know that by adjusting the playback volume, you are are actually writing a tag.
Which tag? I tested with adjusting the volume and restoring a backup of the file, and the volume remained adjusted.
For mp3s it's RAV2 or RAVD (I think), for FLAC it writes to the database as vorbis doesn't really support volume adjustment. Either way it's the equivalent of writing a tag

Ah, that makes sense. So it doesn't write any tags to my FLAC files like I said.
Title: Re: Saving any settings in a file, even just a volume adjustment, writes ENCODER tag
Post by: phred on November 09, 2021, 01:05:40 PM
0For mp3s it's RAV2 or RAVD (I think), for FLAC it writes to the database as vorbis doesn't really support volume adjustment. Either way it's the equivalent of writing a tag
My mistake. Volume adjustment is not the same as replay gain. I've been using MB long enough to have known this.
Title: Re: Saving any settings in a file, even just a volume adjustment, writes ENCODER tag
Post by: The Incredible Boom Boom on November 09, 2021, 01:58:42 PM
What happens if you make the file read only and try to adjust the volume?
Title: Re: Saving any settings in a file, even just a volume adjustment, writes ENCODER tag
Post by: SonicRings on November 10, 2021, 08:34:47 AM
What happens if you make the file read only and try to adjust the volume?
It removes the read-only attribute and then writes the ENCODER tag anyway.
Title: Re: Saving any settings in a file, even just a volume adjustment, writes ENCODER tag
Post by: SonicRings on November 30, 2021, 06:26:04 AM
Changing the "do not crossfade" checkbox by checking it and setting it to yes/no does not write any tags, nor does it update the file's timestamps. Likewise with the "exclude from playback" checkbox.
It seems that the behaviour I'm experiencing with the volume adjustment setting does not occur with any of the other settings.
Title: Re: Saving any settings in a file, even just a volume adjustment, writes ENCODER tag
Post by: ma_t14 on April 06, 2022, 03:42:31 PM
Yes thats the expected behaviour when any tags are written. Some people dont like it but its not a bug

Is there any practical reason for this? I can only assume there's some programmatical quirk, because in practical terms I'm struggling to think of anything
Title: Re: Saving any settings in a file, even just a volume adjustment, writes ENCODER tag
Post by: hiccup on April 06, 2022, 04:27:01 PM
My guess is that it is about MusicBee being consistent in its actions and trying to make data available in an as consistent as possible manner irrespective of the various existing audio formats.
(which is a to be respected effort and accomplishment by itself)

So as Bee-liever pointed out earlier, as soon as you apply volume adjustment, MusicBee performs a write action so that formats such as mp3 will store that info.

The 'Encoder' tag is another tag that is utterly inconsistent between audio (metadata) formats and encoding software.
So MusicBee will make an effort to read/update it and make it available at a save action.

Both of the above make perfect sense to me, and are very useful and sensible for most users and most user cases.

Personally it irritates me quite a bit when people that chose to use an advanced music manager that will obviously need to manage the metadata of files, and as a result might need to update files under some circumstances (without deleting or altering any of the original metadata) complain about metadata being added, or a file timestamp being changed.
I think they should look for other solutions to solve their 'problem'.
Title: Re: Saving any settings in a file, even just a volume adjustment, writes ENCODER tag
Post by: SonicRings on April 06, 2022, 04:40:06 PM
Personally it irritates me quite a bit when people that chose to use an advanced music manager that will obviously need to manage the metadata of files, and as a result might need to update files under some circumstances (without deleting or altering any of the original metadata) complain about metadata being added, or a file timestamp being changed.
I think they should look for other solutions to solve their 'problem'.

I'm sorry I've irritated you. That was not my intent.

Now, when you call this an advanced music manager, and then immediately try to use that to justify the fact that it writes tags that it was never told to do so, how exactly does that back up your statement? How is hard-coding an action to run a pointless, redundant task when an unrelated action is performed, "advanced"? What good does writing the encoder tag do? What purpose does it serve? It already knows the encoder, so why would it then write it to a tag?

What happens if you convert the file? It will have an incorrect encoder tag that would then "need" to be updated. I say "need" in quotes because even if you don't update it, nothing will change. It doesn't affect anything. Musicbee will already know what encoder it's using regardless of the tag and update it accordingly. Since it gets that from the properties of the file, not the tags.

It's like writing the bitrate, sample rate and bit depth to the tags. What's the point? You uh... read the file properties, then write those to a tag? Why?

I don't need to look for other solutions to solve my "problem" as it's already been solved via making a copy of the track, making the edit I want to make, and then restoring the copy of the track. Since the edits I'm making are internal to musicbee, they don't get changed then I restore the original file. This works.

Again, sorry for irritating you, but you have to understand this isn't about you, it's about the expected behaviour of a software that goes against the norm. The encoder tag serves no purpose, and thus shouldn't be forcibly written.

This was brought up in the past (https://getmusicbee.com/forum/index.php?topic=22357.0) when someone was making edits to the tags, which is still weird, but their date modified and date accessed attributes would have already changed either way. In my case, I'm not making any edits to the file, so I understandibly don't want the files to be edited.
Title: Re: Saving any settings in a file, even just a volume adjustment, writes ENCODER tag
Post by: hiccup on April 06, 2022, 04:54:34 PM
I'm sorry I've irritated you. That was not my intent.
It's not 'you' that irritated me.
It's the idea and complaints that are raised once in a while by users of an advanced music manager that complain about it actually managing stuff that is helpful and useful.

I'm not going to fuel or continue a discussion on this.
I gave my honest opinion in my previous reply. Do anything you like with it.

Your opinion and observation that me sharing my opinion on this is "just about me" is correct in only one sense: It's my opinion.
(not that you said that to improve on the discussion did you?)

So are your opinions and replies perhaps also "just about you"?
Title: Re: Saving any settings in a file, even just a volume adjustment, writes ENCODER tag
Post by: SonicRings on April 06, 2022, 04:56:32 PM
I'm sorry I've irritated you. That was not my intent.
It's the idea and complaints that are raised once in a while by users of an advanced music manager that complain about it actually managing stuff that is helpful and useful.
Please explain what is helpful and useful about saving the encoder to a tag.

Quote from: SonicRings
this isn't about you, it's about the expected behaviour of a software that goes against the norm.

I'm sorry I've irritated you. That was not my intent.

So are your opinions and replies perhaps also "just about you"?

As I said, it's about expected behaviour and following the norm. If you consider that to be "just about me" - that nobody else would expect software to follow expected behaviour based on the established norms, and doing only exactly what the user told it to do and nothing more - then by all means, it's all about me, and I embrace it.
Title: Re: Saving any settings in a file, even just a volume adjustment, writes ENCODER tag
Post by: hiccup on April 06, 2022, 05:14:17 PM
Ok, I punched a bag that was hanging from a ceiling and now I am back.

You raised this being a software bug.
What is the malfunction, and what actual problem is this is causing for you?
Title: Re: Saving any settings in a file, even just a volume adjustment, writes ENCODER tag
Post by: SonicRings on April 06, 2022, 05:16:11 PM
Ok, I punched a bag that was hanging from a ceiling and now I am back.

You raised this being a software bug.
What is the malfunction, and what actual problem is this is causing for you?

Please read OP and my replies.

Tl;Dr -  It saved encoder tag when I didn't tell it to.
Title: Re: Saving any settings in a file, even just a volume adjustment, writes ENCODER tag
Post by: hiccup on April 06, 2022, 05:21:38 PM
You raised this being a software bug.
What is the malfunction, and what actual problem is this is causing for you?
It saved encoder tag when I didn't tell it to.
I'll try again:

What is the software malfunction, and what actual problem are you experiencing from this bug intended behaviour?

(notice 'intended'? The developer explained to you that it was intended in his first and prompt reply to your original complaint)
Title: Re: Saving any settings in a file, even just a volume adjustment, writes ENCODER tag
Post by: SonicRings on April 06, 2022, 05:22:37 PM
You raised this being a software bug.
What is the malfunction, and what actual problem is this is causing for you?
It saved encoder tag when I didn't tell it to.
I'll try again:

What is the software malfunction, and what actual problem are you experiencing from this bug intended behaviour?

(notice 'intended'? The developer explained to you that it was intended in his first and prompt reply to your original complaint)

It's already been explained. I don't know why you're trying to drag this on and argue in circles.
Title: Re: Saving any settings in a file, even just a volume adjustment, writes ENCODER tag
Post by: hiccup on April 06, 2022, 05:29:33 PM
I don't know why you're trying to drag this on and argue in circles.
You are.
The developer himself explained it's not a bug but intended behaviour.
If that doesn't satisfy you, go create a wishlist topic.

But don't keep going in circles in this bug reports board claiming that this is a software bug when it clearly isn't.
Title: Re: Saving any settings in a file, even just a volume adjustment, writes ENCODER tag
Post by: SonicRings on April 06, 2022, 05:34:29 PM
I don't know why you're trying to drag this on and argue in circles.
You are.
The developer himself explained it's not a bug but intended behaviour.
If that doesn't satisfy you, go create a wishlist topic.

But don't keep going in circles in this bug reports board claiming that this is a software bug when it clearly isn't.

No, I wasn't. I was merely responding to you.

Also, it may not be a bug from Steven's perspective, but look at the view count for this thread. It is the 34th most viewed thread on this entire forum, and was only posted 5 months ago.

Sorted by views, descending:
(https://i.imgur.com/neRuwUX.png)

I'll make a wishlist request. Thanks!
Title: Re: Saving any settings in a file, even just a volume adjustment, writes ENCODER tag
Post by: hiccup on April 06, 2022, 05:50:05 PM
but look at the view count for this thread. It is the 35th most viewed thread on this entire forum, and was only posted 5 months ago.
Might be because I made this about me, and also a little bit more interesting?
Title: Re: Saving any settings in a file, even just a volume adjustment, writes ENCODER tag
Post by: SonicRings on April 06, 2022, 05:51:34 PM
but look at the view count for this thread. It is the 35th most viewed thread on this entire forum, and was only posted 5 months ago.
Might be because I made this about me and also a little bit more interesting?
Oh of course, your comment made this thread gain 7 thousand views in just a matter of an hour. Thank you for your exposure.
Title: Re: Saving any settings in a file, even just a volume adjustment, writes ENCODER tag
Post by: hiccup on April 06, 2022, 05:56:26 PM
Oh of course, your comment made this thread gain 7 thousand views in just a matter of an hour. Thank you for your exposure.
You are welcome.
But it's probably also the most unproductive and non-issue thread I have ever contributed to.
Title: Re: Saving any settings in a file, even just a volume adjustment, writes ENCODER tag
Post by: SonicRings on April 06, 2022, 05:57:37 PM
Oh of course, your comment made this thread gain 7 thousand views in just a matter of an hour. Thank you for your exposure.
You are welcome.
But it's probably also the most unproductive and non-issue thread I have ever contributed to.
We can try to fix that by getting back on topic.

I'm sorry I've irritated you. That was not my intent.
It's the idea and complaints that are raised once in a while by users of an advanced music manager that complain about it actually managing stuff that is helpful and useful.
Please explain what is helpful and useful about saving the encoder to a tag.
Title: Re: Saving any settings in a file, even just a volume adjustment, writes ENCODER tag
Post by: hiccup on April 06, 2022, 06:00:49 PM

We can try to fix that by getting back on topic.

Please explain what is helpful and useful about saving the encoder to a tag.
Have you already forgotten we are in the 'bug reports' board here?
What is not clear about that?
Title: Re: Saving any settings in a file, even just a volume adjustment, writes ENCODER tag
Post by: hiccup on April 06, 2022, 06:02:26 PM
Could a mod please lock this thread so to save me from myself?
Title: Re: Saving any settings in a file, even just a volume adjustment, writes ENCODER tag
Post by: SonicRings on April 06, 2022, 06:03:21 PM

We can try to fix that by getting back on topic.

Please explain what is helpful and useful about saving the encoder to a tag.
Have you already forgotten we are in the 'bug reports' board here?
What is not clear about that?

What is your point? You just sent a bunch of pointless off-topic messages here, now answer the question that is directly related to what this topic is about.

Could a mod please lock this thread so to save me from myself?
I think you should just stop posting. You suddenly want this thread to be locked because I made you realize just how popular it is and you don't want it gaining any more attention. Just stop posting. We don't need this to be locked just because you want to derail it.
Title: Re: Saving any settings in a file, even just a volume adjustment, writes ENCODER tag
Post by: hiccup on April 06, 2022, 06:07:01 PM
You just sent a bunch of pointless off-topic messages here, now answer the question that is directly what this topic is about.
You labeling them as pointless and off-topic says something about your understanding of the matter.
Also, I don't respond well to commands from people that haven't behaved in a manner I respect much.
Title: Re: Saving any settings in a file, even just a volume adjustment, writes ENCODER tag
Post by: hiccup on April 06, 2022, 06:08:27 PM
We don't need this to be locked just because you want to derail it.
So after all this, you still believe that you are reporting a software bug?
Wow, you are thick indeed.
Title: Re: Saving any settings in a file, even just a volume adjustment, writes ENCODER tag
Post by: SonicRings on April 06, 2022, 06:09:12 PM
You just sent a bunch of pointless off-topic messages here, now answer the question that is directly what this topic is about.
You labeling them as pointless and off-topic says something about your understanding of the matter.
Also, I don't respond well to commands from people that haven't behaved in a manner I respect much.

Don't avoid the question. Please explain what is helpful and useful about saving the encoder to a tag.
Title: Re: Saving any settings in a file, even just a volume adjustment, writes ENCODER tag
Post by: hiccup on April 06, 2022, 06:10:55 PM
Don't avoid the question. Please explain what is helpful and useful about saving the encoder to a tag.
Nope.
We are in the 'bug reports' board.
Not in the 'please explain to me' board.
Title: Re: Saving any settings in a file, even just a volume adjustment, writes ENCODER tag
Post by: psychoadept on April 06, 2022, 06:11:20 PM
I'm not a fan of the Encoder behavior, either, but y'all arguing about it is definitely not going to change it. Thread locked.