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Support => Questions => Topic started by: musicbee4dwd on May 18, 2021, 09:10:31 PM

Title: WiFi Speakers - Not Bluetooth - And Music Bee
Post by: musicbee4dwd on May 18, 2021, 09:10:31 PM
I just received a pair of bookshelf speakers and they have the option to use WiFi. I want to use MB through the WiFi speakers. The software for the speakers is only available for Android and then you can only use the app to play music. However, I need to use my PC, not my Andriod phone.

Is there anyway to use a WiFi sound driver that will allow MB to stream WiFi to the speakers?
Title: Re: WiFi Speakers - Not Bluetooth - And Music Bee
Post by: ma_t14 on May 19, 2021, 05:35:10 PM
What's the speaker make/model?
Title: Re: WiFi Speakers - Not Bluetooth - And Music Bee
Post by: musicbee4dwd on May 19, 2021, 06:47:50 PM
I just received a pair of bookshelf speakers and they have the option to use WiFi. I want to use MB through the WiFi speakers. The software for the speakers is only available for Android and then you can only use the app to play music. However, I need to use my PC, not my Andriod phone.

Is there anyway to use a WiFi sound driver that will allow MB to stream WiFi to the speakers?

Chinese no name brand, but damn, I'm impressed with the sound quality (and I have Kilpsch reference series passive speakers too).
Link: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08J7Z8VLJ (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08J7Z8VLJ)

 These were free to me for reviewing on on an Amazon program. It seems that WiFi is a wasted implementation because most mobile users  are never going to use it, especially if it only works with a mobile device running Android, and home Windows users can't use it.

I guess a very limited number of people who have no home equipment but care about their music quality may opt to use the WiFi option on their phone, but then they are stuck using the company's proprietary Android app. And, that's a nonstarter to me. They do have the Bluetooth aptX HD implementation, so, why implement WFi use for Mobile only? Just seems wasted.
Title: Re: WiFi Speakers - Not Bluetooth - And Music Bee
Post by: hiccup on May 19, 2021, 06:59:44 PM
As a wild and somewhat uneducated guess:
If you are able to make the wifi speaker visible to your wifi router, and you have enabled UPnP in your router, I would think Windows will see the speakers as a media device capable of audio playback.
At least it should then be possible to right click music files and choose 'send to Chinese no-name wifi speaker'.
For MusicBee to be able to use it could be a different story.

edit:
1. There are voices that advice against enabling UPnP in a router. You should inform yourself on that matter if you have doubts.
2. A restart of your router, a restart of your Windows PC, and sometimes a little bit of patience may be needed before network devices are completely visible and approachable in Windows.
3.
     (https://i.imgur.com/QhP9xwk.png)
Title: Re: WiFi Speakers - Not Bluetooth - And Music Bee
Post by: musicbee4dwd on May 20, 2021, 01:27:42 AM
As a wild and somewhat uneducated guess:
If you are able to make the wifi speaker visible to your wifi router, and you have enabled UPnP in your router, I would think Windows will see the speakers as a media device capable of audio playback.
At least it should then be possible to right click music files and choose 'send to Chinese no-name wifi speaker'.
For MusicBee to be able to use it could be a different story.

edit:
1. There are voices that advice against enabling UPnP in a router. You should inform yourself on that matter if you have doubts.
2. A restart of your router, a restart of your Windows PC, and sometimes a little bit of patience may be needed before network devices are completely visible and approachable in Windows.
3.
     (https://i.imgur.com/QhP9xwk.png)

Yeah pretty leery about allowing UPNP on a network stack.  Also, "send too" isn't going to be enough. I'm talking to the vendor now about how to go about it.
Title: Re: WiFi Speakers - Not Bluetooth - And Music Bee
Post by: vincent kars on May 20, 2021, 11:30:29 PM
If you are able to make the wifi speaker visible to your wifi router, and you have enabled UPnP in your router,

No.
UPnP is automatic detection over the network just like Plug&Play in case of USB.
If you enable UPnP on a router, the router (most of the time a Linux box) will act as a UPnP server.
You don't need this to make e.g. a phone running BubbleUPnP to see the Speakers (if they are UPnP enabled)
Only if you allow port forwarding, using UPnP over the Internet to acces your music, you create a security risk as each and everybody can connect to your audio (and using exploits probably a bit more).

IMHO
Install a good UPnP server on the PC like https://minimserver.com/
Install some software on your phone like BubbleUPnP
Use Musicbee to maintain your collection
or
Get a decent USB DAC
Connect this to the speakers
Use Musicbee
or
try Bluetooth
It is lossy compression but not bad at all
Musicbee can output to BT
Title: Re: WiFi Speakers - Not Bluetooth - And Music Bee
Post by: hiccup on May 21, 2021, 07:40:59 AM
No.
You don't need this to make e.g. a phone running BubbleUPnP to see the Speakers (if they are UPnP enabled)

I didn't say it was the only way. But if (same as you assume) the speakers have some UPnP functionality, this would be the easiest first step to try and get them to work.
It' s not the best/ideal way, and enabling UPnP in a router can introduce some risk, which I also already warned him about.

You are adding useful information though.
(except for the suggestions to buy another dac or use bluetooth, which is completely besides what the OP is asking for here)
Title: Re: WiFi Speakers - Not Bluetooth - And Music Bee
Post by: musicbee4dwd on May 21, 2021, 07:53:35 PM
If you are able to make the wifi speaker visible to your wifi router, and you have enabled UPnP in your router,

No.
UPnP is automatic detection over the network just like Plug&Play in case of USB.
If you enable UPnP on a router, the router (most of the time a Linux box) will act as a UPnP server.
You don't need this to make e.g. a phone running BubbleUPnP to see the Speakers (if they are UPnP enabled)
Only if you allow port forwarding, using UPnP over the Internet to acces your music, you create a security risk as each and everybody can connect to your audio (and using exploits probably a bit more).

IMHO
Install a good UPnP server on the PC like https://minimserver.com/
Install some software on your phone like BubbleUPnP
Use Musicbee to maintain your collection
or
Get a decent USB DAC
Connect this to the speakers
Use Musicbee
or
try Bluetooth
It is lossy compression but not bad at all
Musicbee can output to BT


Hi Vincent,

I'm using Bluetooth currently and the speakers are aptX HD.

I'm not using my phone to play music, only my PC. And my music in maintained using manual file directory structures I don't trust programs to do that using meta). I jsut create a directory for each artists, and then sub-directories under that for albums, names in my own template, such as :

ArtistName (e.g., MelvinTaylor
--Album (e.g., BluesOnTheRun)
---Tracks (e.g., SweetBlues.FLAC

Where each of those entries is a directory

I just wanted to see if the WiFi option had any use other than using a proprietary app on a cell phone. I don't listen to music on my phone.  I have everything piped though my PC running Windows 10. And I assume we are only talking bout the Ethernet connection here, and not getting Windows to identify the speakers thorough WiFi?

 I've used "smart" lights before where you connect the phone app to your 2.4Ghz WiFi connection, and then the phone app and "smart" light pair and connect. But, that requires software that locks you into that software's  environment. It's not like a software that is for general use, that can pass the WiFi device to the Windows Environment and make it available for whatever software you want to use. I guess a god name for it would be a "WiFi Device Bridge."

I'm assuming the WiFi aspect of the speakers working is with some sort of software that includes a network stack of some sort (With Android apps, it's built in, I think, meaning that using WiFi hardware with an Android app is common procedure.)?
Title: Re: WiFi Speakers - Not Bluetooth - And Music Bee
Post by: musicbee4dwd on May 21, 2021, 07:58:09 PM
If you are able to make the wifi speaker visible to your wifi router, and you have enabled UPnP in your router,

No.
UPnP is automatic detection over the network just like Plug&Play in case of USB.
If you enable UPnP on a router, the router (most of the time a Linux box) will act as a UPnP server.
You don't need this to make e.g. a phone running BubbleUPnP to see the Speakers (if they are UPnP enabled)
Only if you allow port forwarding, using UPnP over the Internet to acces your music, you create a security risk as each and everybody can connect to your audio (and using exploits probably a bit more).

IMHO
Install a good UPnP server on the PC like https://minimserver.com/
Install some software on your phone like BubbleUPnP
Use Musicbee to maintain your collection
or
Get a decent USB DAC
Connect this to the speakers
Use Musicbee
or
try Bluetooth
It is lossy compression but not bad at all
Musicbee can output to BT


Hi Vincent,

I'm using Bluetooth currently and the speakers are aptX HD.

I'm not using my phone to play music, only my PC. And my music in maintained using manual file directory structures I don't trust programs to do that using meta). I jsut create a directory for each artists, and then sub-directories under that for albums, names in my own template, such as :

ArtistName (e.g., MelvinTaylor
--Album (e.g., BluesOnTheRun)
---Tracks (e.g., SweetBlues.FLAC

Where each of those entries is a directory

I just wanted to see if the WiFi option had any use other than using a proprietary app on a cell phone. I don't listen to music on my phone.  I have everything piped though my PC running Windows 10. And I assume we are only talking bout the Ethernet connection here, and not getting Windows to identify the speakers thorough WiFi?

 I've used "smart" lights before where you connect the phone app to your 2.4Ghz WiFi connection, and then the phone app and "smart" light pair and connect. But, that requires software that locks you into that software's  environment. It's not like a software that is for general use, that can pass the WiFi device to the Windows Environment and make it available for whatever software you want to use. I guess a god name for it would be a "WiFi Device Bridge."

I'm assuming the WiFi aspect of the speakers working is with some sort of software that includes a network stack of some sort (With Android apps, it's built in, I think, meaning that using WiFi hardware with an Android app is common procedure.)?
No.
You don't need this to make e.g. a phone running BubbleUPnP to see the Speakers (if they are UPnP enabled)
You are adding useful information though.
(except for the suggestions to buy another dac or use bluetooth, which is completely besides what the OP is asking for here)

Correct, and I don't use a phone to do any sort of computing or playing of music, and if I do, I just connect using BT. To me, phones are still in the "toy" category. They have their uses, for sure, but they don't offer the options and freedom I want. So, I only use a phone for things other than txt and calling in situations where it is necessary -- e.g., I'm working on my main rig's hardware and want music , then I'll connect my phone to my Amp using BT and yadda yadda.
Title: Re: WiFi Speakers - Not Bluetooth - And Music Bee
Post by: vincent kars on May 21, 2021, 10:16:55 PM
Hi musicbee4dwd

Some remarks:

Quote
I don't trust programs to do that using meta

You better dump Musicbee as hell as its excellent interface thrives on accurate meta data  :)
Tagging won't harm your audio and allows you to browse, sort and search your audio in a very flexible way.
Of course you need a good file system anyway.
This is my take on tagging: https://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/TG/Tagging.html

Quote
Windows to identify the speakers thorough WiFi?
Doesn't ring a bell.
The difference between WiFi and Ethernet is that the first one is done wireless and the second one wired.
The crucial thing, the protocols used remain the same.

Quote
a software that is for general use
Have a good look at UPnP
This is the network protocol for streaming AV lossless over the LAN: https://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/KB/UPnP.html

Your android phone is not a toy, it is the remote (control point in UPnP speak) for controlling your renderer for playing the track you want to hear.
Best

Vincent
Title: Re: WiFi Speakers - Not Bluetooth - And Music Bee
Post by: The Incredible Boom Boom on May 21, 2021, 10:59:23 PM
I just received a pair of bookshelf speakers and they have the option to use WiFi. I want to use MB through the WiFi speakers. The software for the speakers is only available for Android and then you can only use the app to play music. However, I need to use my PC, not my Andriod phone.

Is there anyway to use a WiFi sound driver that will allow MB to stream WiFi to the speakers?

Do you have a spare Android device?
If the UPnP plugin works on your computer, you could download BubbleUPnP to the secondary mobile device, connect it to the speakers via Bluetooth or aux cable and send music from MusicBee to BubbleUPnP that way.
Title: Re: WiFi Speakers - Not Bluetooth - And Music Bee
Post by: musicbee4dwd on May 22, 2021, 09:12:55 PM
I just received a pair of bookshelf speakers and they have the option to use WiFi. I want to use MB through the WiFi speakers. The software for the speakers is only available for Android and then you can only use the app to play music. However, I need to use my PC, not my Andriod phone.

Is there anyway to use a WiFi sound driver that will allow MB to stream WiFi to the speakers?

Do you have a spare Android device?
If the UPnP plugin works on your computer, you could download BubbleUPnP to the secondary mobile device, connect it to the speakers via Bluetooth or aux cable and send music from MusicBee to BubbleUPnP that way.

The point is NOT to use a cell phone  electronics at all. I want the data to go from my PC, which uses known chips and AptX HD to the device, a clean path from Source to Device.

It would be nice if we could still get our hands on a wireless transmitter and receiver, and then just use the AUX on an amp. The thing is, no one makes those anymore. It's al Bluetooth. There is one vendor on Amazon designing a Class D amp that has both BT and Wireless. I contacted then, because they are a reputable dealer and make some really decent Class D amps, and requested that they develop a WiFi amp. They replied that they were already doing that. However, then you are stuck with that specific amp.

Creative made a WiFi dongle and receiver that plugged into any AUX turning any amp into a Lossless WiFi audio device independent of Bluetooth and all of it's quality problems (then you have the dongle and receiver quality question, yes). They no longer have it, though.

Anyway, it's all going Bluetooth, so you gotta move with it. I just wanted to see if this specific pair of speakers, that offer both BT and WiFi, was usable from a PC and not just from a phone using their proprietary app.
Title: Re: WiFi Speakers - Not Bluetooth - And Music Bee
Post by: hiccup on May 22, 2021, 09:37:00 PM
I believe HP also had a dac that could work wireless by means of a propriatary wifi dongle.
And the reviews on it were quite o.k.
Such a solution seems a no-brainer interesting option that manufacturers should easily be able to monetize.
No dependency on any 3rd party protocols or other devices. Just a 'wireless cable' using your own dongle and technology.
Actual plug and play.
I've no idea why such solutions don't seem available these days.
(perhaps you can find them on the digital silk route?)
Title: Re: WiFi Speakers - Not Bluetooth - And Music Bee
Post by: vincent kars on May 22, 2021, 10:59:01 PM
You might have a look at https://audioengineusa.com/shop/adapters/b-fi-multiroom-music-streamer/
Although no longer maintained, you might give this plugin a shot: https://getmusicbee.com/addons/plugins/11/upnp-dlna-device-support/
Title: Re: WiFi Speakers - Not Bluetooth - And Music Bee
Post by: phred on May 22, 2021, 11:07:03 PM
Although no longer maintained, you might give this plugin a shot: https://getmusicbee.com/addons/plugins/11/upnp-dlna-device-support/
The UPNP plugin works for some folks and doesn't work for others. On the not working side is that it has the ability to be a memory hog. Often to the point of bringing the PC to a standstill and sometimes going to a blue screen. This can happen as long as the plugin is installed. It doesn't actually have to be in use. As Vincent says, look though the thread and if you think it can do what you're looking for, then download it and test it. You may be one of the lucky ones and have it work with no issues. Please post any questions about the plugin in the plugin's thread and not here on this thread.
Title: Re: WiFi Speakers - Not Bluetooth - And Music Bee
Post by: musicbee4dwd on May 23, 2021, 12:48:21 AM
Hi musicbee4dwd

Some remarks:

Quote
I don't trust programs to do that using meta

You better dump Musicbee as hell as its excellent interface thrives on accurate meta data  :)
Tagging won't harm your audio and allows you to browse, sort and search your audio in a very flexible way.
Of course you need a good file system anyway.
This is my take on tagging: https://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/TG/Tagging.html

Quote
Windows to identify the speakers thorough WiFi?
Doesn't ring a bell.
The difference between WiFi and Ethernet is that the first one is done wireless and the second one wired.
The crucial thing, the protocols used remain the same.

Quote
a software that is for general use
Have a good look at UPnP
This is the network protocol for streaming AV lossless over the LAN: https://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/KB/UPnP.html

Your android phone is not a toy, it is the remote (control point in UPnP speak) for controlling your renderer for playing the track you want to hear.
Best

Vincent

I do tag them, when I have spare time. Thing is, if they are not tagged properly, I can still find my music (no untagged orphans). All of my local music if filed sing directory level sub directories. that way I'm not dependent on any software tagging implementation. I can always  transfer my music to any device simply by copying it, and it's always organized using Windows directory structures.

I don't want an Android phone inbetween my source and destination.
Title: Re: WiFi Speakers - Not Bluetooth - And Music Bee
Post by: musicbee4dwd on May 23, 2021, 12:57:00 AM
I believe HP also had a dac that could work wireless by means of a propriatary wifi dongle.
And the reviews on it were quite o.k.
Such a solution seems a no-brainer interesting option that manufacturers should easily be able to monetize.
No dependency on any 3rd party protocols or other devices. Just a 'wireless cable' using your own dongle and technology.
Actual plug and play.
I've no idea why such solutions don't seem available these days.
(perhaps you can find them on the digital silk route?)

You would think, but I believe it is because very few people have home systems anymore, or even use PC/Personal computers, or even laptops, unless they must for work. Most people are sing cell phones for everything. that's why when you try t have a conversation in email, and you are trying to be specific, like we are here, you get back:

"Okay."

That's because they are using their thumbs to type and having any sort of detailed conversation would take them days to type out on a F-ing phone. But, it is what it is, but IT is not for me. Using your thumbs to communicate on a 4" screen is idiotic.

About the best we can do now is buy Amps that have Wireless capability and ditch Bluetooth altogether. If Bluetooth gets to the point it is as god as WiFi, then I'm in. I don't have a problem with new technology, as long as it is "as good" as old technology. Bluetooth aptX HD and Adaptive seem to be going in the right direction. Although from what I have read. Adaptive 'chooses the best" quality fr you. And FU on that. We all now how that works. Creative does have a Bluetooth aptX HD dongle that actually has lights on it so you can tell when you are transmitting aptx/HD or when, for example, SBC is being used. But this "automatic" stuff is just generic talk, to me anyway.

Title: Re: WiFi Speakers - Not Bluetooth - And Music Bee
Post by: musicbee4dwd on May 23, 2021, 01:03:06 AM
I believe HP also had a dac that could work wireless by means of a propriatary wifi dongle.
And the reviews on it were quite o.k.
Such a solution seems a no-brainer interesting option that manufacturers should easily be able to monetize.
No dependency on any 3rd party protocols or other devices. Just a 'wireless cable' using your own dongle and technology.
Actual plug and play.
I've no idea why such solutions don't seem available these days.
(perhaps you can find them on the digital silk route?)

You would think, but I believe it is because very few people have home systems anymore, or even use PC/Personal computers, or even laptops, unless they must for work. Most people are sing cell phones for everything. that's why when you try t have a conversation in email, and you are trying to be specific, like we are here, you get back:

"Okay."

That's because they are using their thumbs to type and having any sort of detailed conversation would take them days to type out on a F-ing phone. But, it is what it is, but IT is not for me. Using your thumbs to communicate on a 4" screen is idiotic.

About the best we can do now is buy Amps that have Wireless capability and ditch Bluetooth altogether. If Bluetooth gets to the point it is as god as WiFi, then I'm in. I don't have a problem with new technology, as long as it is "as good" as old technology. Bluetooth aptX HD and Adaptive seem to be going in the right direction. Although from what I have read. Adaptive 'chooses the best" quality fr you. And FU on that. We all now how that works. Creative does have a Bluetooth aptX HD dongle that actually has lights on it so you can tell when you are transmitting aptx/HD or when, for example, SBC is being used. But this "automatic" stuff is just generic talk, to me anyway.
You might have a look at https://audioengineusa.com/shop/adapters/b-fi-multiroom-music-streamer/
Although no longer maintained, you might give this plugin a shot: https://getmusicbee.com/addons/plugins/11/upnp-dlna-device-support/

B-Fi requires the Audioengine Control app for initial setup. I've seen this before, and ti might work well. It seems to be able to play multiple sets of speakers at the same time--given you have 189.00 for each set you want to use. lol
Title: Re: WiFi Speakers - Not Bluetooth - And Music Bee
Post by: musicbee4dwd on May 23, 2021, 01:07:57 AM
Although no longer maintained, you might give this plugin a shot: https://getmusicbee.com/addons/plugins/11/upnp-dlna-device-support/
The UPNP plugin works for some folks and doesn't work for others. On the not working side is that it has the ability to be a memory hog. Often to the point of bringing the PC to a standstill and sometimes going to a blue screen. This can happen as long as the plugin is installed. It doesn't actually have to be in use. As Vincent says, look though the thread and if you think it can do what you're looking for, then download it and test it. You may be one of the lucky ones and have it work with no issues. Please post any questions about the plugin in the plugin's thread and not here on this thread.

Hey Phred,


I'm not even going to do that for these speakers I'm reviewing. I've stopped trying kludge things together in Wondows. It takes a lot of time, and then one Windows update, and everything you spent hours or days trying make work is broken (and you have forgotten what you did to make it work in the first place). It's just not worth it to me anymore.

I've contacted the vendor and ask if they can be used on WiFi with Windows 10, and they replied "yes" but dd not elaborate. So I sent them another message asking "how?" No reply yet and if I don't get one, I'm just going to report that I could not find a way to connect them to Windows 10 using WiFi. I've spent enough time on them.