getmusicbee.com
General => General Discussions => Topic started by: musicbee4dwd on October 17, 2020, 06:02:41 PM
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Maybe I'm wrong here, and if so, just disregard. I'm just trying to add suggestions for MB's future.
Over the last 12 years, as online stations became more available, I found myself listening to genres of music that I had never heard before, or genres of music I had, but with much more sophistication in the music that was played.
My music tastes have changed dramatically because of this.
I found myself moving away from listening to my lifetime of collections--that I had eventually FLAC'ed to digital and sold the CDs, mostly blues and rock--and almost exclusively online to jazz and chill lounge type music (Groove Salad from SomaFM is a god example).
I would even use Winamp's stream capture and split ability to record hours and hours of music from my favorite stations as I slept, and then move those hours to a USB drive for listening in my car on trips, and then eventual everywhere. It completely replaced "radio" stations for me. (If you are wondering how to capture live streams, you can still use Winamp to do that (I think) or AIMP, which has the same function. They just take the stream and download it into a directory folder of your choice, and then cut it up per song, no resampling or other compression added.)
Anyway, as far as organizing MB for online use, it's much more involved than Winamp was.
And, that's my point to all of this because the more complicated MB is to do simple tasks (Like organize streams and back them up), the less people are going to use it.
Therefore, maybe a MB online optimization is prudent?
Mainly, I'd like to see a clean up of the method to move stations into a custom library made much easier to use and navigate. For instance, I asked how to make a tab to import my online streams into so I could organize them as I wished, and I cannot for anything remember the process. I'd have to go dig that up again, much less how to back up those stream links (libraries?) and reimport them.
Also, since I'm on the topic of streaming music, I remember Stephen said something about Ice Cast was now too hard to implement into MB, but I forgot the problem.
However, VLC does it still. Interestingly enough, it does not support Shoutcast. I'm just wondering why we can no longer use IceCast in MB, or if for some reason it is impossible, etc?
(https://i.imgur.com/HICy0kM.png)
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I am probably a contorted mix between old- and new school.
I'm used to having the music that I care about locally.
In the past as vinyl/tape/dat etc., these days as digital files.
WW-III can break out, but I will have my selection of music without the need of concepts such as internet access.
(note to self: buy a power generator)
But obviously these days the internetz is fantastic to explore learn and get introduced to new music.
But when using it and running into anything that interests me, I will do my best to get that music on my system so I am not dependent on the web to listen to it.
So I have a clear distinction between on- and offline content.
MusicBee for me is mainly for offline enjoyment, and I make sure that the music I really love is on my system. (and on backups)
Websites on music, Internet radio, soundcloud, bandcamp, google music, spotify, et al. to me are volatile sources of music without any guarantee for longevity. I would never trust any of them to have and safeguard my music and playlists.
Also I feel no loyalty to any of them.
I do enjoy their features and their value, but I am not that concerned that MusicBee should support all of them.
So to me these are two different worlds. Local music that I have, vs. music that is/might be available.
I myself am not driven much to see improved integration between MusicBee handling local files, and whatever is 'out there'.
Even if any microsoft/google/spotify/itunes/soundcloud or general 'explore music' features were to be removed from MusicBee tomorrow, I probably wouldn't complain much.
But I am very aware this is the viewpoint of somebody that was born in the vinyl age, and in my youth the only hint of what internet would be could be found in E.M. Forster's "The Machine Stops".
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That's funny, I've gone completely the other direction. I mean, I'll use Spotify sometimes to check out something new, but up until COVID I was on a big push to get as many CDs of what I listen to as possible, regularly hitting thrift stores and getting some big lots off Facebook marketplace and so on. I'm still sorting out the resultant mess, lol.
The main reason is to have the cds as backups, I just rip them and put them in storage. But I've learned the hard way to have backups of backups. My external drive started making the click of death a couple nights ago, but for once I'm not stressed about it because I've got backups of the important stuff in two different places.
Well, and I want to add any info I can extract to the MusicBrainz database. Someday I hope to get more covers scanned and so on. Also, trying to track down things that are older or just rare.
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I'm pretty much in the same camp as hiccup, and to a lesser extent as psycho.
I want to listen to my music and I want to listen to it -now-. I don't want to have to go to a (usually subscription) music site, log in and listen. And then it's gone. I do however, like to find new music on the web. But I don't need (nor want) it integrated into MB.
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I don't pay for subscriptions ever. Shout Cast has tons of free music, much of it with no ads ever.
If you want to listen to a specific song immediately, then yes, you need a local collection. If I need to do that, I just hit Youtube. I'm pretty sure Youtube has every song ever recorded--lol.
I mean they even have Dihna Cancer's band 45 Grave from LA, CA back in the 1980s.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xr9KRAMydf0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xr9KRAMydf0)
I mean if they have that they gotta have everything.
I get having your won local files. I did too. One of these days I may get back some of my favorite collection. I still have a decent collection, but it's all in 128-192 MP3. It's all I have before I accidentally tossed my lifetime collection of digitized FLACs.
But, whatever we do personally, streaming is here to stay. And, it will only get cheaper and more instant. I have a stream for a blues station I listen to that is streaming 1500kpbs FLAC.
Anyway, if MB is going to survive, it's going to have to adapt to users who mainly stream. It's just the way it is. It's not really that big of a deal, really. Just an easy way to find streams and categorize them. It could even be a stripped down internal browser that allows you to go to a website within MusicBee, like Ice Cast, and have MB import the stream from the browser data.
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OMG MusicBee is going to DIE if it doesn't accommodate exactly what I do! Dump your high bitrate FLAC files and adopt 192k AAC streaming immediately!
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No doubt streaming will continue to be a thing, but the upside for Steven about this being a hobby project (albeit MAJOR one) is he doesn't have to worry about following the trends if he doesn't want to.
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No doubt streaming will continue to be a thing, but the upside for Steven about this being a hobby project (albeit MAJOR one) is he doesn't have to worry about following the trends if he doesn't want to.
I agree with that and if anything MusicBee could do with less users as it is a bit too much sometimes. Also I don't think having a desktop player is going away anytime soon as there are still people who want a local collection or who listen to locally stored music now and again even if they also stream or listen more on their phones.
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OMG MusicBee is going to DIE if it doesn't accommodate exactly what I do! Dump your high bitrate FLAC files and adopt 192k AAC streaming immediately!
I think it would be good not turn this thread into some for/against argumentative discussion.
All input and opinions can be interesting and can be taken as such.
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I think it would be good not turn this thread into some for/against argumentative discussion.
All input and opinions can be interesting and can be taken as such.
OK. Not sure why you quoted me there then.
Anyway, if MB is going to survive, it's going to have to adapt to users who mainly stream. It's just the way it is. It's not really that big of a deal, really.
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OMG MusicBee is going to DIE if it doesn't accommodate exactly what I do! Dump your high bitrate FLAC files and adopt 192k AAC streaming immediately!
That is exactly NOT my point. At all. Not even in the slightest.
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No doubt streaming will continue to be a thing, but the upside for Steven about this being a hobby project (albeit MAJOR one) is he doesn't have to worry about following the trends if he doesn't want to.
Well, no of course not.
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No doubt streaming will continue to be a thing, but the upside for Steven about this being a hobby project (albeit MAJOR one) is he doesn't have to worry about following the trends if he doesn't want to.
I agree with that and if anything MusicBee could do with less users as it is a bit too much sometimes. Also I don't think having a desktop player is going away anytime soon as there are still people who want a local collection or who listen to locally stored music now and again even if they also stream or listen more on their phones.
Have you ever thought about offering some sort of premium aspects to a paid version of MB? Something that would never hobble the free version for casual users, but at the same time offer things professional DJs might want, something like that?
Anyway, you rock Stephen. I'm just suggested making streaming music easier to navigate, and have the backup of saved streams into one button-the stream libraries. Local collections are not a problem because you just point MB to the directory, and you're done.
You know back when I finally left Winamp after years (just too old), I moved to MB because of the ability to use a file explorer in the program--so many other programs don't do that. You can't browse folders! No way am I ever going to use a program that doesn't let me see my files.
I'm not suggesting a major change at all, for I understand this is a one man hobby. It's amazing you have gotten it this far.
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Have you ever thought about offering some sort of premium aspects to a paid version of MB? Something that would never hobble the free version for casual users, but at the same time offer things professional DJs might want, something like that?
Here be dragons... ::)
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Have you ever thought about offering some sort of premium aspects to a paid version of MB? Something that would never hobble the free version for casual users, but at the same time offer things professional DJs might want, something like that?
Here be dragons... ::)
LOL, yeah. But, you never know, right? Stephen already has the initial product support done. I mean MB is all over the internet. Monetizing it in a way that doesn't affect individual users could be an option.
My friend did that once in his life. He was working at the world's largest paper company as a network administrator, but he wanted to become an engineer. So, he quit and started working on a gaming macro program that was network intensive. (We were playing a game at that time that was the worlds 3-4th MMO, so it was really popular--after Ultima Online got destroyed. Anyway, he took about a year and half and taught himself all sorts of stuff he never knew during that time, since knowing networking infrastructure, encryption, etc, was a necessary condition of doing the software.
I think he stopped working at that company in about 2001-2022 and at that time he was making around 90K a year. After he taught himself the necessary tools for being a networking engineer, he used a temp agency to get him back into the job market, and landed a job at NASDAQ as a software engineer and then he left the temp agency because NASDAQ wanted to employ him as a contractor, and he was not into the agency bullshit anymore. So NASDAQ got involved and talked to the agency and had his contract terminated. That was in about 2008-09. He worked at NASDAQ on a huge project for about 7 years. At the time he left NASDAQ, he was bagging 230K a year.
My point is that turning a profit from something like this doesn't necessarily need to be a negative.
Oh, by the way, the gaming macro he was working on got terminated about a year after he started it, but at that time it was turning about a 30K a year profit. It was doomed though because he said they hired a full time network engineer to break his program. He said it use to be about once every month or two they would change things and it would take him about 2-3 days to get it back again. When he stopped developing it, he said that guy they hired was breaking his program every single time he would fix it. He said, "Damn, that guys good. I fix it and he breaks it in about the same time it take me to fix it." He also said he deserved it because the program was really cheating. It had a radar that could detect any character all over the maps, shit like that. He knew it was uncool, but he wasn't doing it for money. He was trying to learn. He never wanted to do that full time. He wanted to be a software engineer, and today he still is.
I'm not trying to open any can of worms here. It would just be nice to have Icecast back, at least like it is implemented VLC, and an easy way to backup saved streams and organize them.
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My friend did that once in his life...
This seems to be derailing off-topic completely.
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My friend did that once in his life...
This seems to be derailing off-topic completely.
It's an example of how development can work to an advantage and not a detriment. It relates to monetizing some aspects of MB for professional use, which is supposedly where "dragons be."
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Remember when I tried to diffuse this with humor a couple of days ago? Those were the days!
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My point is that turning a profit from something like this doesn't necessarily need to be a negative.
The dragon I was referring to is that as soon as users start paying for something their expectations change.
As a freely available (but still awesome) hobby project, people know they're getting what they paid(?) for and if it isn't quite to their liking that's just how it is and they can either accept it or use something else.
If they've handed over $20 (or whatever amount you like), they're more likely to demand their requests for new features get implemented, even if they're specific to their workflow.
They're also more likely to demand their bug fixes are addressed, even if it's because they're trying to run MusicBee on a Commodore 64.
Overlapping that is that there already exists specialised paid programs for tasks like DJing or editing or whatever, made by teams of developers and testers and support staff.
Using DJing as an example, MusicBee can kinda do it if all you want to do is cue up tracks (which isn't DJing :P), but if they want to audition or mix tracks they really should be using something like Serato or Traktor. Users shouldn't be given the impression that MusicBee can operate as a replacement for them, at any price.
These are obviously my own thoughts on this. For all I know Steven might be planning to quit his day job and use MusicBee as his retirement cash cow. ::)
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My point is that turning a profit from something like this doesn't necessarily need to be a negative.
The dragon I was referring to is that as soon as users start paying for something their expectations change.
As a freely available (but still awesome) hobby project, people know they're getting what they paid(?) for and if it isn't quite to their liking that's just how it is and they can either accept it or use something else.
If they've handed over $20 (or whatever amount you like), they're more likely to demand their requests for new features get implemented, even if they're specific to their workflow.
They're also more likely to demand their bug fixes are addressed, even if it's because they're trying to run MusicBee on a Commodore 64.
Overlapping that is that there already exists specialised paid programs for tasks like DJing or editing or whatever, made by teams of developers and testers and support staff.
Using DJing as an example, MusicBee can kinda do it if all you want to do is cue up tracks (which isn't DJing :P), but if they want to audition or mix tracks they really should be using something like Serato or Traktor. Users shouldn't be given the impression that MusicBee can operate as a replacement for them, at any price.
These are obviously my own thoughts on this. For all I know Steven might be planning to quit his day job and use MusicBee as his retirement cash cow. ::)
Yeah. I agree with all of that.
It would need to be a huge change in development to go pro with it. Stephen would need to be totally committed to it, like all things similar :(.
Anyway, my main suggestion wasn't to change it all up for me. It would just be nice to have an easy way to organize and backup streams, other than having to create tabs, then import from the Shoutcast search box, then add to the new tab/label structure, and to bring back IceCast someway, such as pictured in VLC in my initial post.
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I stream from my Amazon Music Unlimited once or twice a week, as necessary or convenient (background, etc.); but, I use MusicBee to manage, play, etc. my treasured music almost every day. And we all prefer MB's Now Playing screen more than anything "unlimited" or convenient.
More and more people are moving to fast food eateries too, but I don't need nor want my favorite restaurants to set up counters.
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I stream from my Amazon Music Unlimited once or twice a week, as necessary or convenient (background, etc.); but, I use MusicBee to manage, play, etc. my treasured music almost every day. And we all prefer MB's Now Playing screen more than anything "unlimited" or convenient.
More and more people are moving to fast food eateries too, but I don't need nor want my favorite restaurants to set up counters.
"More and more people are moving to fast food eateries too, but I don't need nor want my favorite restaurants to set up counters."
Why in the world would you use a false dichotomy to make your point? It's not either/or at all. It's "in addition to."
Streaming 1500kbps FLAC internet radio is hardly fast food vs digitized CD content on your local drive.
My only point was that having a more robust online footprint in MB wold make it even better. For instance, it would be great to have a simple button (not necessary simple to implement) for switching between local music needs and online music needs. It would clean both of them up. I don't know how that would work, and it's just thinking out loud. However, it's never either/or.
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It is an interesting topic.
And, it is in 'General Discussions', and, the title chosen for it is very broad (allow me to say: vague) and it doesn't set much limitations.
So to me this is inviting anybody to share his opinions on the matter in general that the title covers.
If there are, or if the discussion produces specific and thought-through suggestions for improving integration of streaming audio and MusicBee, they can be posted on the wishlist board.
Else this will remain a discussion board without much consequences for MusicBee.
More on-topic: I am guessing radio stations would indeed be a likely candidate for this.
But I am wondering if services such as Spotify, Tidal, etc. could be integrated much?
Are they open to this sort of things? Are API's available that will allow for integration?
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It is an interesting topic.
And, it is in 'General Discussions', and, the title chosen for it is very broad (allow me to say: vague) and it doesn't set much limitations.
So to me this is inviting anybody to share his opinions on the matter in general that the title covers.
If there are, or if the discussion produces specific and thought-through suggestions for improving integration of streaming audio and MusicBee, they can be posted on the wishlist board.
Else this will remain a discussion board without much consequences for MusicBee.
More on-topic: I am guessing radio stations would indeed be a likely candidate for this.
But I am wondering if services such as Spotify, Tidal, etc. could be integrated much?
Are they open to this sort of things? Are API's available that will allow for integration?
The radio station thing is an important concern. Stephen recently took out Ice Cast for some reasons for incompatibility or something, although VLC media player does list a very limited number of Ice Cast's past stations.
However, you can manually input stations into MB. However, services like this https://www.accuradio.com don't have a readily available pls link.
You get something like https://www.accuradio.com/chill/?name=Chill&b0=Chill&b1=Electronic# and it doesn't open from MB.
They do have apps though. I'm not interested in those. I want to stay with MB. So your question is an important one, and I guess Stephen would have to answer it.
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But I am wondering if services such as Spotify, Tidal, etc. could be integrated much?
A few{?} years ago Spotify was removed from Logitech Media Server (Squeezebox.) They said it was due to Spotify pulling its API. And, as far as I can tell, you can only get Spotify via their app or through their website. I know nothing about Tidal.
There are also a lot of radio station streams that are only available via TuneIn. So MB can't get them. 'Tis a shame.
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You can absolutely add streams from TuneIn to MB, or at least you could. I know this because I read it on the wiki. I did it myself three years ago when I first started using MB. I'm assuming these steps either still work or will work slightly modified and updated.
https://musicbee.fandom.com/wiki/Play_TuneIn_radio_stations_through_MusicBee
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You can absolutely add streams from TuneIn to MB, or at least you could. I know this because I read it on the wiki. I did it myself three years ago when I first started using MB. I'm assuming these steps either still work or will work slightly modified and updated.
https://musicbee.fandom.com/wiki/Play_TuneIn_radio_stations_through_MusicBee
I certainly haven't tried in a while, but I will tomorrow. Thanks for this. I'll let you know if it's working.
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frankz & phred: the way I use now to get the TuneIn URL's is the method here (browser terms used are from the latest Firefox):
1. Go to the station's TuneIn page, i.e. chosen at random https://tunein.com/radio/Yellowstone-Public-Radio-917-s32474/ (https://tunein.com/radio/Yellowstone-Public-Radio-917-s32474/)
2. Right-click just outside the round "Play" button, and choose "View Page Info" (not "View Page Source")
3. Hit the "Media" button on top of the Page Info box
4. Look down the "Address" list box paying attention to the "Type" column until you see the type "Audio"; there will normally be two of those, one is the actual stream URL the other ends in "../blank.mp3"--you do NOT want the "blank.mp3" address.
5. Right-click and copy the stream URL, which in the example in step #1 would be "http://ypr-sc.streamguys.net/live", and paste into a New Station box in MusicBee.
BTW the "Inspect Element/search for jp_audio" method works too, I just find the above less "messy."
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frankz & phred: the way I use now to get the TuneIn URL's is the method here (browser terms used are from the latest Firefox):
1. Go to the station's TuneIn page, i.e. chosen at random https://tunein.com/radio/Yellowstone-Public-Radio-917-s32474/ (https://tunein.com/radio/Yellowstone-Public-Radio-917-s32474/)
2. Right-click just outside the round "Play" button, and choose "View Page Info" (not "View Page Source")
3. Hit the "Media" button on top of the Page Info box
4. Look down the "Address" list box paying attention to the "Type" column until you see the type "Audio"; there will normally be two of those, one is the actual stream URL the other ends in "../blank.mp3"--you do NOT want the "blank.mp3" address.
5. Right-click and copy the stream URL, which in the example in step #1 would be "http://ypr-sc.streamguys.net/live", and paste into a New Station box in MusicBee.
BTW the "Inspect Element/search for jp_audio" method works too, I just find the above less "messy."
Wow, never heard this one dude. Is it applicable on google chrome?
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frankz & phred: the way I use now to get the TuneIn URL's is the method here (browser terms used are from the latest Firefox):
This is very encouraging. However(!) your example, and one of my own, do not show the "audio" type. Your example not at all, and mine (https://tunein.com/radio/CBC-Radio-One-Toronto-991-s20305/) show an "audio" type, but it's "blank.mp3." I don't think the Firefox version is the reason (I'm at 83.0). I'd love to get this sorted out.
And the Inspect Element returns nothing for 'jp_audio" that contains a URL
Here's what I'm seeing from your example, sorted by 'type'
(http://i.imgur.com/7hX3nWql.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/7hX3nWq.jpg)
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OK, turns out there is a "secret sauce" in the recipe I was unaware of at the time. Before doing the View Page Info steps I described, you have to play the station momentarily first with the Play button--THAT apparently is what populates the Audio info, as shown below. I assume that will also make it show up in the other method.
(https://i.imgur.com/MN2v56C.png)
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OK, turns out there is a "secret sauce" in the recipe I was unaware of at the time. Before doing the View Page Info steps I described, you have to play the station momentarily first with the Play button--THAT apparently is what populates the Audio info, as shown below. I assume that will also make it show up in the other method.
(https://i.imgur.com/MN2v56C.png)
I'm assuming that is the information is available it could be automatically imported into MB, theoretically? I'm also thinking that if their IT department sees streams going to a non web browser that is off site. they might not like that? It sounds like "hot inking" images, and some server / devs don't allow it.
Also, what happened to Ice Cast that made it impossible to implement in MB? I could find all of teh music I needed between Ice and Shout.
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I'm also thinking that if their IT department sees streams going to a non web browser that is off site. they might not like that? It sounds like "hot inking" images, and some server / devs don't allow it.
Off what site? TuneIn is off-site from the server playing the audio. TuneIn would have no idea you're playing a stream originating at streamguys.net outside of TuneIn. How would they?
I'm sure, like any other radio station, streamguys.net don't care how you listen as long as you are exposed to their advertising.
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OK, turns out there is a "secret sauce" in the recipe I was unaware of at the time. Before doing the View Page Info steps I described, you have to play the station momentarily first with the Play button--THAT apparently is what populates the Audio info, as shown below. I assume that will also make it show up in the other method.
Okay sveakul, you have redeemed yourself. :-)
I tested with your Yellowstone link and it was successful. Then tried two others, again resulting in success.
Then I tried a tough one - CBC Radio One. Years ago they had published their live stream URLs on their website. Then they moved to TuneIn. Since I use a Squeezebox, I had to plead with them repeatedly via email to give me the URLs. At first they wouldn't. Then I got one. I asked for three more and eventually got them. But now, with this method, I can extract them from TuneIn.
Great big thanks!
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Wow, never heard this one dude. Is it applicable on google chrome?
You can use the Network tab in Developers Tools.
CTRL + SHIFT + J -> Network
Press play or wait for the stream to begin, then right-click on "live" -> Copy -> Copy link address
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But now, with this method, I can extract them from TuneIn.
Great big thanks!
Happy to help!