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MusicBee & Add-Ons => Customizations => Plugins => Topic started by: hiccup on August 02, 2020, 09:39:06 PM

Title: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: hiccup on August 02, 2020, 09:39:06 PM
This is a genre hierarchy list that can be added to MusicBee as a replacement for the genre hierarchy that it uses by default.
(note: this is relevant for MusicBee 3.4 beta only, see the bottom of this post)

This 'enhanced' version has the same basic concept and idea, which is:

It contains all genres, and all variations on their names as are present in the genre databases of MusicBrainz and Discogs, and a few from Wikidata.
That means that if you use MusicBee's auto-tag function, or other tagging software such as Picard or mp3tag, those genres will be matched and categorised.

There are two differences between the default one and this enhanced version:

1.
MusicBee's default genre hierarchy list is flat and basic.
Which makes it easy to navigate and quickly see all music in a selected main category without the need to consider deeper navigation or having subdivisions that could be considered too subjective or biassed.

It will look like this:

(https://i.imgur.com/59SYufT.png)


This enhanced version has 2nd level subdivisions for most main genres, and a 3rd for some. It can look like this:

(https://i.imgur.com/DYeKUqF.png)


2.
For this enhanced version I will not keep the genres limited to what is on MusicBrainz and Discogs, but I will be adding new genres and possibly new categories that I consider useful and sensible.

Suggestions on those are welcome, I will add them if I agree with them.
(I already added some additional Metal genres and the Metalcore category after good suggestions from smann)


download Enhanced genre hierarchy list (https://bit.ly/MB_Enhanced_Genre_Hierarchy)
 

howto:
- extract the downloaded rar file.
- put the Enhanced genre hierarchy.txt file in the folder:  MusicBee> AppData> TagHierarchyTemplates
  (note: this folder will have been created by MusicBee only after you have enabled the Tag Hierarchy Explorer panel at least once)
- (re)start MusicBee
- click the header of the Tag Hierarchy Browser panel to select the Enhanced genre hierarchy.


Optional addition: Genre grouping text file


In the download link you will also find a text file named 'Genre category grouping'.
It is updated to contain all the genres that are used in the enhanced genre hierarchy file, and can be added to MusicBee so that MusicBee's Genre Categories matches these 'Enhanced Genres'.

howto:
Preferences > Tags (2) > Group genres > Categorise
Then paste the contents of the text file into the genre categorisation editor panel.

(https://i.imgur.com/TNiSF2A.png)
(for this to work well, be sure your MB installation is patched to at least version 3.4.7770)


For classical music aficionados with a black belt, using Picard and it's Classical Extras plugin

Besides for getting genre tags, you can also setup Classical Extras to write a tag for the period in which the piece was composed.
The Enhanced Genre Hierarchy is capable of making use of that too. The result can be like this:

(https://i.imgur.com/rYxTEm8.png)

To align the periods that the browser will read and the plugin will write, you will need to setup the 'Genre etc. > Periods' panel of the CE plugin like this:

(https://i.imgur.com/PPIyGHh.png)

Code
Period › Medieval, 1150,1402; Period › Renaissance, 1398, 1602; Period › Baroque, 1598,1752; Period › Classical, 1748,1820; Period › Early Romantic, 1800,1849; Period › Late Romantic, 1850,1912; Period › Modern, 1908,1975; Period › Contemporary, 1950,2525
You will also need to use a script that writes and adds these period names to the regular 'genre' tag.
How to do that is beyond the scope of this thread.

– – – – – –
NOTE:
This tag hierarchy feature is only available for MusicBee 3.4
If you are using an older version, please update.

– – – – – –

Please also note:
This topic is about the 'Enhanced Genre Hierarchy list' I created to be optionally used in MusicBee's Tag Hierarchy Explorer panel.
If you have questions or issues with MusicBee's Tag Hierarchy Explorer itself, please go here:

https://getmusicbee.com/forum/index.php?topic=32556.0
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: hiccup on August 02, 2020, 09:39:23 PM
An additional tool that can complement the Enhanced Genre Hierarchy browser:

Subgenre Tagger (https://bit.ly/MB_Enhanced_Genre_Hierarchy)

This is a tool intended to be helpful when you are using a custom Subgenre tag to complement the default Genre tag.
It will suggest relevant subgenres for music that already contains a 'main' genre tag.

The idea behind it is that you are using the Genre tag for more broad and generic genre names, and an additional (custom) Subgenre tag for refining them.

The taxonomy of this Subgenre Tagger is identical to the Enhanced Genre Hierarchy browser.
So if you use this Subgenre Tagger to write your subgenres, your music will be categorised and displayed correctly when using (switching to) the Enhanced Genre Hierarchy browser.

Howto:

Make sure you have a created a custom Subgenre tag.
Download the file using the link in the startpost.
Extract it, and copy the Subgenre tagger.txt file to your MusicBee>AppData>TagHierarchyTemplates folder.

    edit 07-04-2021
    The subgenre feature is now integrated in the Enhanced genre hierarchy file, so there is no separate 'subgenre tagger.txt' file anymore.

In MusicBee, enable the Tag Hierarchy Explorer panel (Arrange Panels> Panels Configuration)
Click it's header, select 'Subgenre tagger'.
Enable the Vertical Tag Editor panel in the same way.

Now when you are editing a file that contains a known main genre in the Genre tag, you will see a drop-down menu for the Subgenre tag that will show subgenres relevant to that main genre.

These are the main genres that will get proposals for subgenres:

(https://i.imgur.com/a5cU4yy.png)

Some examples for Classical, Jazz, Electronic:

(https://i.imgur.com/D4iUGO4.png)

Update 1.200821 has improved subgenre suggestions for 'Metal':

(https://i.imgur.com/IFJG9t2.png)
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: Mr. Trev on August 03, 2020, 10:34:29 PM
Very nice. Thanks.

Although it may mean more work for me (being more specific with tags) since all my stuff is using fairly generic genre tags - mostly to keep my portable devices from getting confused ;)
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: hiccup on August 04, 2020, 06:59:29 PM
Very nice. Thanks.
Although it may mean more work for me (being more specific with tags) since all my stuff is using fairly generic genre tags - mostly to keep my portable devices from getting confused ;)

Thank you Mr. Trev.
It can indeed be an incentive to waste more time on your hobby ;-)

But this is also intended as a potential time saver.
If you use auto-tagging, and the tags source providers supply good quality genre tags… , it should save time and make navigating and exploring your library better and easier.

For now sourced genre tags are often disappointing, but I do see some improvements and progress being made here and there.
I am convinced in the long run it will get better and better, and the need for manual tagging will become less and less.

So MusicBee will then be just a little bit ahead of the game ;-)
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: Mr. Trev on August 04, 2020, 11:40:37 PM
Indeed, the rub has always been trying to find a place where the genre tags match up with my ideal.

How well does MB handle keeping the genre tag as database only - if even possible?

I've been thinking of maybe creating a copy of MB (gotta love the portable version) and using that to experiment with. I was thinking of using what Musicbrainz Picard picks (maybe using the last.fm plugin) and see what happens. If there isn't any issue with keeping the genre changes just saved to the database (not written to the actual files) it wouldn't be that big of a deal if I end with with a total mess - I'd just restore my backup.
If it actually works out OK, then I'd commit to writing the tags to the files.
The other thing for me to consider is it's going to affect my DAPhile server and how to deal with syncing to my devices (eg. I don't need my jazz tunes broken down to hard bop, 3rd stream, etc. Blanket jazz is good enough for that)

Sorry for going a bit OT,
Cheers
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: Adson on August 07, 2020, 08:55:25 AM
hiccup, thank you very much for sharing this useful genre list enhancement with us.

I often had problems setting the appropiate (difficult word for Germans ;-) ) genre for my music files.
There are so many different flavours and subdivisions in a lot of the general genres.

I am looking forward to try your plugin this evening on my home computer.
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: hiccup on August 07, 2020, 06:49:59 PM
hiccup, thank you very much for sharing this useful genre list enhancement with us.
I am looking forward to try your plugin this evening on my home computer.

You're welcome Adson.
Please also check post #2.
It describes another tool I have just added that can be useful if you use a custom Subgenre tag additional to the generic Genre tag.
(and I updated the Enhanced Genre Hierarchy browser file too)

Please feel free to give any feedback on your experiences. This is all still under development, and fresh eyes and input will be useful in ironing out flaws and improving things.
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: Mr. Trev on August 07, 2020, 09:16:59 PM
I'm not sure how I missed the subgenre tag tool, but thanks again.

This possibly could work great for me. I haven't setup a subgenre tag yet, but I could use a script to copy Picard's genre tag to the subgenre tag instead. IIRC, Picard was using more specific tags for genre than I was using, which would be perfect for my subgenres.
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: hiccup on August 07, 2020, 09:26:18 PM
I'm not sure how I missed the subgenre tag tool…

You didn't miss it, I only created and added it today ;-)
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: Mr. Trev on August 08, 2020, 05:07:45 PM
I'm not sure how I missed the subgenre tag tool…

You didn't miss it, I only created and added it today ;-)

Sweet, I'm not completely losing my mind.

Is it safe to edit your txt files? Just for the sake of personalization of course - I'm lazy so all my "Heavy Metal" tracks are tagged as just "Metal". Seems like it'd be easier to change your list rather than all my files.

Cheers
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: hiccup on August 08, 2020, 06:12:03 PM
Is it safe to edit your txt files? Just for the sake of personalization of course - I'm lazy so all my "Heavy Metal" tracks are tagged as just "Metal". Seems like it'd be easier to change your list rather than all my files.

Changing the name of categories, or changing what genres go where shouldn't be a problem.
I wouldn't change the genre names, since they are as they are named in the databases of MusicBrainz and Discogs.
But you could add your own of course.

It's good that you raise the subject. A quick websearch shows there are some different opinions about what is metal and what is heavy metal.
Wikipedia says they are the same and interchangeable, but I think that is incorrect.
I will probably be making some changes in the hardware department…
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: Steven on August 08, 2020, 11:48:30 PM
@hiccup, the installation instructions above are slightly out of date
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: Mr. Trev on August 09, 2020, 02:32:58 AM
Is it safe to edit your txt files? Just for the sake of personalization of course - I'm lazy so all my "Heavy Metal" tracks are tagged as just "Metal". Seems like it'd be easier to change your list rather than all my files.

Changing the name of categories, or changing what genres go where shouldn't be a problem.
I wouldn't change the genre names, since they are as they are named in the databases of MusicBrainz and Discogs.
But you could add your own of course.

It's good that you raise the subject. A quick websearch shows there are some different opinions about what is metal and what is heavy metal.
Wikipedia says they are the same and interchangeable, but I think that is incorrect.
I will probably be making some changes in the hardware department%u2026

Ah, makes sense. I suppose that'd be the best way to go about it (using Musicbrainz/Discogs as a reference)
On the other hand, I'm going to have to agree with Wikipedia that "Metal" and "Heavy Metal" are the same - the joys of subjective taste.

A couple quick install questions too:
If I toss both the "tag hierarchy" and "enhanced tag hierarchy" into the correct folder, which one takes priority? Should I even have both? <nevermind, I just noticed there's only the enhanced version now. maybe this is what Steven is referring to>
Second, regarding the "subgenre" tool: I/we have to manually create the MusicBee>AppData>TagHierarchyTemplates folder, correct? Or should it be auto-created, which in my case didn't happen.
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: hiccup on August 09, 2020, 06:34:39 AM
@hiccup, the installation instructions above are slightly out of date
That's fixed.
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: hiccup on August 09, 2020, 06:56:18 AM
On the other hand, I'm going to have to agree with Wikipedia that "Metal" and "Heavy Metal" are the same - the joys of subjective taste.

Yeah, I think (at least these days) it would be best to consider Metal just as an abbreviation of Heavy Metal.
But some will disagree:
(https://ironskullet.com/2017/10/30/the-history-of-heavy-metal-part-i-the-difference-between-metal-and-heavy-metal/)
And even some sites that are valuable sources on genre matters are not that clear about it:
If you read the description on Metal here: https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/metal they use both names interchangeably.
But when you look at the hierarchy list on the right, they have put Heavy Metal under Metal.

Not a biggie though, I'll probably just rename the Heavy Metal category to Metal and the 'issue' will be solved.

Quote
A couple quick install questions too:…

I edited the 'howto' to match the current implementation.
That probably cleared things up?
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: hiccup on August 09, 2020, 10:19:04 AM
Both the Enhanced Genre Hierarchy browser and the Subgenre Tagger were updated.

- A couple of genres were added.
- Some improvements were made on the Classical section.
- The category 'Heavy metal' was renamed to 'Metal'.
- The Enhanced genre browser is now better aligned to match subgenres created with the Subgenre tagger.
- Some other small improvements.

Download links are in the startpost
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: Mr. Trev on August 09, 2020, 06:21:58 PM
On the other hand, I'm going to have to agree with Wikipedia that "Metal" and "Heavy Metal" are the same - the joys of subjective taste.

Yeah, I think (at least these days) it would be best to consider Metal just as an abbreviation of Heavy Metal.
But some will disagree:
(https://ironskullet.com/2017/10/30/the-history-of-heavy-metal-part-i-the-difference-between-metal-and-heavy-metal/)
And even some sites that are valuable sources on genre matters are not that clear about it:
If you read the description on Metal here: https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/metal they use both names interchangeably.
But when you look at the hierarchy list on the right, they have put Heavy Metal under Metal.

Not a biggie though, I'll probably just rename the Heavy Metal category to Metal and the 'issue' will be solved.

Quote
A couple quick install questions too:…

I edited the 'howto' to match the current implementation.
That probably cleared things up?

The updated install instructions made things much clearer. I still was using the original tool (ie. not enhanced version). I also was on an older version of the beta so that may have had an impact too.
I have updated everything and it seems to be working as expected. Now to start adding subgenres…
Can we use multiple subgenres, eg. "Baroque; Concerto"?
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: hiccup on August 09, 2020, 08:36:26 PM
Now to start adding subgenres…
Can we use multiple subgenres, eg. "Baroque; Concerto"?

Sure. You could add both the subgenres 'Oi' and 'Baroque'.
Then when using the hierarchy browser, that track will show up both under Classical and under Punk.

b.t.w. that's kind of the beauty of this hierarchy browsing. A lot of music can't be defined to being only one single genre.
When in such doubt you can tag a song (or an album) with several genres (e.g. both Soul, Disco and Funk), and it will show up when selecting any of these categories.


If you use the Subgenre tagger with the vertical tag editor, only relevant subgenres to the Genre are proposed.
You can select more than one, but when you save, do understand that any subgenre tags that were there before will be deleted.
So you can't use this to add subgenre tags to existing ones. It will clear what was already there.
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: LR7 on August 09, 2020, 09:24:35 PM
Oh "Metal"...  ;D  it is important if the band plays Black/Death Metal or Death/Black Metal... also there is a difference between Progressive Doom Metal or Progressive/Doom Metal, hahaha... I write a seperate "Metal hierarchy list", based on my library and metal archives.

Heyyy, it's Thrash Metal, not trash ;-)

They suggest the subgenres:
Black | Death | Doom/Stoner/Sludge | Electronic/Industrial | Experimental/Avant-garde | Folk/Viking/Pagan
Gothic | Grindcore | Groove | Heavy | Metalcore/Deathcore | Power | Progressive | Speed | Symphonic | Thrash

And it seems fine. I use mp3tag with metal-archives plugin for tagging, so I got hundreds of sub-sub genres, which I can't handle with genre categories - but now. Awesome
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: hiccup on August 10, 2020, 10:03:50 AM
And it seems fine. I use mp3tag with metal-archives plugin for tagging, so I got hundreds of sub-sub genres, which I can't handle with genre categories - but now. Awesome

Do they have a list of approved genres and subgenres, or can a user add any genre name as he pleases?
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: LR7 on August 10, 2020, 12:23:52 PM
Do they have a list of approved genres and subgenres, or can a user add any genre name as he pleases?

Based on user submissions, heavily moderated (https://www.metal-archives.com/content/rules) and discussed (https://forum.metal-archives.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=35533).
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: Mr. Trev on August 10, 2020, 07:42:40 PM
So, everything seems to be working fine, just wondering how you have your vertical tag editor setup? Panel? Floating? I can't seem to find any way where it isn't way too intrusive.

Also, where do you personally go to get your genre/subgenre tags? I've been trying the various plugins in Picard, but I'm getting nothing other than the generic ones I already use
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: hiccup on August 11, 2020, 02:20:30 PM
just wondering how you have your vertical tag editor setup? Panel? Floating? I can't seem to find any way where it isn't way too intrusive.

At the moment I have it in the left main panel, beneath the Tag hierarchy explorer.
You can set a shortcut key for the Vertical tag editor too, so you can quickly toggle it in/out of sight.
 
Quote
Also, where do you personally go to get your genre/subgenre tags? I've been trying the various plugins in Picard, but I'm getting nothing other than the generic ones I already use

I'm using Picard's internal genre feature, the Wikidata genre plugin, and for classical music the Classical Extras plugin.
The results are usually quite bland and not that refined. But still useful for some initial categorisation and for getting some pointers and ideas.

Even though most providers these days have improving subgenre lists, it will be a human effort to apply them to releases. And considering how debated and complicated the matter is, that seems to be a very slowly progressing matter.
Most contributors will feel safe entering 'what's on the box', and getting names and facts right.
Adding something that has a risk of somebody else commenting on to be 'incorrect' is a risk many contributors may not be willing to take.
Everybody likes to be 'correct' these days, right?

Also I don't think Discogs and RYM have API's. I am not sure if other users have ways to retrieve tags automatically from them?
(I believe alec.tron is doing something with that?)

I do have custom weblinks for them and a couple of other websites, so it's easy to quickly see what genres they are suggesting for a release.
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: hiccup on August 11, 2020, 03:00:54 PM
Oh "Metal"...  ;D  it is important if the band plays Black/Death Metal or Death/Black Metal... also there is a difference between Progressive Doom Metal or Progressive/Doom Metal, hahaha... I write a seperate "Metal hierarchy list", based on my library and metal archives.

They suggest the subgenres:
Black | Death | Doom/Stoner/Sludge | Electronic/Industrial | Experimental/Avant-garde | Folk/Viking/Pagan
Gothic | Grindcore | Groove | Heavy | Metalcore/Deathcore | Power | Progressive | Speed | Symphonic | Thrash

And it seems fine. I use mp3tag with metal-archives plugin for tagging, so I got hundreds of sub-sub genres, which I can't handle with genre categories - but now. Awesome

I am a bit hesitant to add such additional category levels for Metal.

Here's why:

Most Metal music of any subgenre has overlaps with other subgenres.
That often doesn't have to be a big problem, but for a hierarchy sheet like this, a subgenre can only go into one category.

Looking at the suggested categories above, where would these go?:

Industrial black metal
Industrial death metal
Industrial groove metal

Symphonic black metal
Symphonic death metal
Symphonic metal

I am guessing the first three go in 'Industrial', and the other three in 'Symphonic'?

What about these three:

Melodic black metal
Melodic death metal
Melodic groove metal

There is no 'Melodic' category, so they should probably go separately in: Black, Death and Groove?

Now if this is true, the result will be that when you select the category 'Black metal', you will not see the Industrial and the Symphonic versions, only the Melodic one.

Some other difficult ones (for me at least):
'Symphonic deathcore'
Does it go in the 'Symphonic' category or in the Metalcore/Deathcore category?

Or: 'Blackened death metal'.
I believe that's a fusion genre of Black metal and Death metal.
It can't go in both categories, and since it's a fusion of the two, it also can't go in one of them.
So in what category should it go?

In many cases metal subgenres seem to be about differences in either styles, lyrical content, tempo, atmosphere, etc.
To me that makes it difficult to define clean-cut sub-categories that will suit the general user, and will actually improve browsing instead of complicating it.

Maybe it is the 16 categories as suggested being a bit too many for this purpose?
Perhaps a smaller amount could work, I am not sure.
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: Mr. Trev on August 13, 2020, 01:40:22 AM
just wondering how you have your vertical tag editor setup? Panel? Floating? I can't seem to find any way where it isn't way too intrusive.

At the moment I have it in the left main panel, beneath the Tag hierarchy explorer.
You can set a shortcut key for the Vertical tag editor too, so you can quickly toggle it in/out of sight.
 
Quote
Also, where do you personally go to get your genre/subgenre tags? I've been trying the various plugins in Picard, but I'm getting nothing other than the generic ones I already use

I'm using Picard's internal genre feature, the Wikidata genre plugin, and for classical music the Classical Extras plugin.
The results are usually quite bland and not that refined. But still useful for some initial categorisation and for getting some pointers and ideas.

Even though most providers these days have improving subgenre lists, it will be a human effort to apply them to releases. And considering how debated and complicated the matter is, that seems to be a very slowly progressing matter.
Most contributors will feel safe entering 'what's on the box', and getting names and facts right.
Adding something that has a risk of somebody else commenting on to be 'incorrect' is a risk many contributors may not be willing to take.
Everybody likes to be 'correct' these days, right?

Also I don't think Discogs and RYM have API's. I am not sure if other users have ways to retrieve tags automatically from them?
(I believe alec.tron is doing something with that?)

I do have custom weblinks for them and a couple of other websites, so it's easy to quickly see what genres they are suggesting for a release.

Thanks for the feedback. Personally, I'll probably just skip the vertical tag editor for now - old habits die hard

I'm not sure if I have Picard set up wrong or something since it didn't seem to matter what plugin I used, I always got the same results.
A Discogs API would be nice. I like their simple Genre/Style
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: LR7 on August 13, 2020, 07:26:26 PM
So far I filtered the additions:

Atmospheric | Avant-garde | Blackened | Brutal | Depressive | Electronic | Epic | Experimental | Industrial | Medieval | Melodic | Progressive | Psychedelic | Raw | Symphonic | Technical


These descriptions went into their own tags (Groups for me).

So I am left with the big Subgenres:

Black, Death, Doom/Stoner/Sludge, Electronic/Industrial*, Experimental/Avant-garde*, Folk/Viking/Pagan, Gothic, Grindcore, Heavy, Metalcore/Deathcore, Post- (Post-Metal, Post-Black Metal, Post-Hardcore), Power, Progressive*, Speed, Symphonic*, Thrash and I forgot Nu Metal/Groove Metal, sorry

*there are Bands playing exclusively that subgenre, e.g. Queensrÿche/Progressive Metal or Therion/Symphonic Metal.

An Atmospheric Black Metal Band is now a Black Metal Band for me with the Tag "Atmospheric".

Nonetheless I have 350 Metal subgenres remaining and not sure what to do with them:
https://bin.disroot.org/?d209a382fe992814#4USYyKmQ7zYefgbMgYwN9kLb18HwcNmLbjrZfTSZXLyP
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: alec.tron on August 13, 2020, 10:21:53 PM
A Discogs API would be nice. I like their simple Genre/Style
Hai.
But there is a Discogs API :
https://www.discogs.com/developers

And, there's also ready to use plugins using the above for MusicBee, as well as Foobar.
Churs.
c.
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: Tommy on August 14, 2020, 07:31:59 AM
Thanks for this very nice addition to MusicBee.

I'm trying to figure out how to toggle show/hide the Tag Hierarchy Explorer.

Is that even possible ?
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: hiccup on August 14, 2020, 06:17:44 PM
But there is a Discogs API :
And, there's also ready to use plugins using the above for MusicBee, as well as Foobar.

Thnx, I tried it (again) and immediately remembered why I quickly gave up and kind of forgot about it:
Discogs doesn't seem to have a grouping system for releases. (at least not where it concerns genres)

They allow for every variation of a release to have different genres and styles entered so you can have things like this:

(https://i.imgur.com/3qybONk.png)

Have you figured something out that works for you and avoids manually checking several releases before applying genre tags?
 
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: hiccup on August 14, 2020, 06:26:34 PM
Thanks for this very nice addition to MusicBee.

I'm trying to figure out how to toggle show/hide the Tag Hierarchy Explorer.

Is that even possible ?

Hi Tommy, since your question is not about my 'Enhanced genre hierarchy list', but about the tag hierarchy browser in general, it would be better if if you posted your question here:

https://getmusicbee.com/forum/index.php?topic=32556.0
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: Tommy on August 15, 2020, 05:34:56 AM
After I posted I kinda figured that I did it in the wrong thread but it was already too late, sorry about that.
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: hiccup on August 17, 2020, 05:08:02 PM
Nonetheless I have 350 Metal subgenres remaining and not sure what to do with them:
https://bin.disroot.org/?d209a382fe992814#4USYyKmQ7zYefgbMgYwN9kLb18HwcNmLbjrZfTSZXLyP

I wouldn't consider those to be 350 subgenres.
It looks like something coming from Discogs? It looks like listings of separate subgenres concatenated in a single string divided by slashes?

When retrieving those and tagging your files with it it would be best to somehow get them splitted to the original an individual entered subgenres.
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: alec.tron on August 17, 2020, 07:50:34 PM
But there is a Discogs API :
And, there's also ready to use plugins using the above for MusicBee, as well as Foobar.

Thnx, I tried it (again) and immediately remembered why I quickly gave up and kind of forgot about it:
Discogs doesn't seem to have a grouping system for releases. (at least not where it concerns genres)
...
Have you figured something out that works for you and avoids manually checking several releases before applying genre tags?

Generally, it works for me... but for very different reasons. i.e. I set genre values by hand, and use discogs as a second set of data; and, most of the music I collect exists only on single / few different releases, and has a strong/enthusiastic discogs contributor community, which helps.


To explain why yhou are seeing what you are seeing, as genres can fluctuate and are subjective on discogs - that's one of the historically odd and/or grown decisions on discogs:
- Every 'release' (a medium, physical or digital) does need a genre/style set when you commit it to discogs (*and one could debate the point / sense in applying genre values on release level [album, EP, compilation, etc] only anyway...).
- Master Releases, which is the grouping you are wondering about if it exists, does exist as a concept/functionality, but has no concept of genres, or other release metadata in itself...
- Adding a release, and being forced to select genres for a release results in very different genre/style definitions (as it would, when different people with different interpretations of genre names do this in a community...)
- That inevitably leads to multiple, user committed releases of the same release with different genre definitions regularly unfortunately.


As an updside - discogs has released TRACKS (i.e. breaking down a release into single pieces on a medium), but, that was shelved about a year ago (as the implementation they've chosen wasn't scaling well... and had inherent issues.... see ) but, they promised it will make a comeback, in re-engineered form (but, that could take years... https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/803017).
Which means, one will be able to set genres on a single track version (and all it's duplicates)...

Bottom line is, genre definitions, especially on large volume / pop(ular) albums with lots of different releases, are a mess on discogs. The smaller the sub genres / styles, and the more active experienced users are contributing to specific sub genres/styles, the better the data...

c.
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: hiccup on August 18, 2020, 06:49:10 AM
To explain why you are seeing what you are seeing…

Thanks for this great explanation alec.tron.
Looking at how much time it is taking organisations such as RYM and Discogs to get these things 'right' while they do have the ambition to, we will probably have to be very patient before all this genre and style stuff becomes some smooth sailing.
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: alec.tron on August 18, 2020, 01:47:25 PM
Aye, just monitoring genre contributions on discogs releases is a sisyphean task... if you take on arguing about them (as what discogs is fairly good at to only allow data that is visible/printed on the release... and even that is cause enough for upsetting various tempers regularly), it becomes absolutely impossible (and why moderators do shy away from getting into arguments about) when genres are submitted with a release...

That's why I had high hopes for Tracks... but, even if that made a comeback (with genre values for single tracks, as that wasn't done on the first iteration either, but was planned to come) soon ish, it'll take years for the community to have populated these as well on a larger scale...

I have a hunch (and a secret hope) that there'll be ML driven approaches popping up in the next years, either through the large vendors, or through academia or startups/individuals... but, who knows what genre definitions/map/model/taxonomy they might train it on...

c.
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: hiccup on August 21, 2020, 03:52:32 PM
Updated

Metal now has sub-categories:

(https://i.imgur.com/hGrGC2E.png)


- The Subgenre Tagger was updated accordingly (post #2)
- A Genre Category grouping list was added (see post #1)

Download links are in the startpost.

free bonus:
Some Crooner metal (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlmRjqBt_mE) and some Cute metal (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5RJVQEQaIU)
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: hokusho on October 31, 2020, 05:33:22 PM
I don't understand where I'm supposed to add these .txt files. Are they part of another plug-in?
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: psychoadept on October 31, 2020, 05:35:50 PM
It's not a plugin, but you might need to update to the beta version (see my signature). The genre list is built in, but you can replace it or add new files in the AppData - TagHierarchyTemplates folder.  You can also edit them through the menu in the panel.
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: hokusho on October 31, 2020, 07:27:42 PM
It's not a plugin, but you might need to update to the beta version (see my signature). The genre list is built in, but you can replace it or add new files in the AppData - TagHierarchyTemplates folder.  You can also edit them through the menu in the panel.

I see, now it's working fine, but the directory the TagHierarchyTemplates folder showed up was Roaming > MusicBee. That's what confused me.
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: psychoadept on October 31, 2020, 07:35:38 PM
It's not a plugin, but you might need to update to the beta version (see my signature). The genre list is built in, but you can replace it or add new files in the AppData - TagHierarchyTemplates folder.  You can also edit them through the menu in the panel.

I see, now it's working fine, but the directory the TagHierarchyTemplates folder showed up was Roaming > MusicBee. That's what confused me.

Yeah, it'll be in different places depending on the type of installation you have.
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: Londinium on November 15, 2020, 10:42:25 AM
Hi, a huge thanks for this great feature, I've been waiting for something like this for a long time!

For those interested by the RateYourMusic genres hierarchy, I've created a file (https://gist.github.com/Londinium/8f22957aa185c893c38b99a06eeaefd4) with all the 1705 genres RYM currently has.  Their genres hierarchy might not be perfect (I think they are currently moving from a genres only system to a genres+descriptors system so it's a work in progress I guess) but it goes quite in the details, especially for the "Regional Music" top-level which has something around 7 nested levels.

Enjoy!
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: hiccup on November 15, 2020, 04:04:16 PM
For those interested by the RateYourMusic genres hierarchy, I've created a file (https://gist.github.com/Londinium/8f22957aa185c893c38b99a06eeaefd4) with all the 1705 genres RYM currently has.  Their genres hierarchy might not be perfect (I think they are currently moving from a genres only system to a genres+descriptors system so it's a work in progress I guess) but it goes quite in the details, especially for the "Regional Music" top-level which has something around 7 nested levels.

Thanks for sharing Londinium!

I have a question and a suggestion:

Q.
Where did you find these 1705 genres and it's hierarchy?
I am aware of this source, but it's slightly dated, and it has no hierarchies?:
https://pastebin.com/tr9DggBb

S.
This thread was intended for my 'Enhanced genre hierarchy' list/file.
It's great that other members such as you contribute here, so that's no problem at all.

But to maybe to give your creation some better attention, perhaps create a new separate thread called something like 'RYM genre hierarchy'?

Or don't, it's not that I have strong feelings on this.
Honestly, if you leave it like this it is great too.

Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: psychoadept on November 15, 2020, 04:17:50 PM
There's a thread here for collecting all the tag hierarchy files: https://getmusicbee.com/forum/index.php?topic=32978.0
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: hiccup on November 15, 2020, 04:28:54 PM
There's a thread here for collecting all the tag hierarchy files: https://getmusicbee.com/forum/index.php?topic=32978.0

Ah yes.
But perhaps a hierarchy for that topic is needed too?
If the number of contributions increase over time, they will be difficult to find in a single thread.
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: Londinium on November 15, 2020, 04:40:48 PM
Where did you find these 1705 genres and it's hierarchy?
I am aware of this source, but it's slightly dated, and it has no hierarchies?:
https://pastebin.com/tr9DggBb

You can easily inspect API calls in your browser developer tools 😉

For your suggestion :

There's a thread here for collecting all the tag hierarchy files: https://getmusicbee.com/forum/index.php?topic=32978.0

Thanks! I wasn't aware of this specific thread, I've found this one while looking in the changelog (https://getmusicbee.com/forum/index.php?topic=32142.msg178730#msg178730).  I've reposted here (https://getmusicbee.com/forum/index.php?topic=32978.msg183382#msg183382).
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: hiccup on November 15, 2020, 04:46:39 PM
You can easily inspect API calls in your browser developer tools 😉

Not if your talents and capabilities on that are not in your toolbox. ;-)
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: hiccup on March 25, 2021, 06:51:33 PM
Updated

- added new genres, including the ones that were recently added to the databases of MusicBrainz and RateYourMusic.
- the 'genre grouping' list (for Preferences > Tags (2) > group genres) was updated accordingly.
- fixed an error where for some cases the 'Subgenre tagger' would suggest subgenres belonging to a different main genre.
- some small tweaks and refinements
 
I managed to combine the (previously separate)  'Enhanced genre hierarchy' and 'Subgenre tagger' files into one file.
So that eliminates the need to switch between the two for either browsing or tagging purposes.
The new file is named 'Enhanced genre hierarchy and subgenre tagger' and can be found using the download link in the startpost.

It will look like this:

(https://i.imgur.com/GPoaTJP.png)

The 'Genre browser' node is the one to use.
The 'subgenre helper' node only has a functional purpose and should not be used for browsing.

Note that the 'subgenre' feature only serves a purpose for those users that are using a custom 'Subgenre' tag.
Its intended use is explained in post #2.


Testers are welcome!
I did test it myself for a while, but it's very easy to make a mistake in lists like these and perhaps overlook something.
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: hiccup on March 26, 2021, 10:17:30 AM
For those interested in testing and providing some feedback:

I am especially interested if there are genres missing from the hierarchy file that should be added.

One way of checking if your library contains unrecognised genres is this:

(https://i.imgur.com/r9RYnc6.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/FrtXznN.png)

If you see entries under 'No tag hierarchy for' that you believe are credible genres you could post a screenshot of that part of the panel, or just list the genres.
With credible I mean that they have been sourced from credible sources such as Discogs, MusicBrainz, et al., or are mentioned on at least 2 'serious' music-related websites.
I am not interested in entries such as 'American pop', 'Beautiful music', 'Pop/Funk/Hip-hop', 'Atmospheric blackened melodic death doom trash metal', etc.
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: hiccup on March 27, 2021, 08:48:09 AM
Updated

- added some more genres and fixed some minor flaws
- made improvements on the Classical department, especially regarding 'period'.
  (details on that are at the end of the start post)
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: hiccup on March 28, 2021, 10:10:02 PM
Updated

I was never very satisfied with how Latin, Mexican and South American music turned out in this hierarchy.
After looking at it with some fresh eyes (and ears), I have made some big changes to the related genres and their positions in the sheet.
Quite a few genres were added (most Brazilian and Cuban), and a new category named 'Latin American and Caribbean' was created under 'World'.

An impression:
(https://i.imgur.com/8jKO8Td.png)

The idea is to have the more traditional Latin music under 'Latin', and everything else with strong Latin influences or roots from the regions: Central America, Caribbean, South America under 'Latin American and Caribbean'

As always, the sheet is subjective and is constructed to my personal preferences.
I hope this is the last update for a while…
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: hiccup on April 11, 2021, 02:24:17 PM
A remark:

If you use the enhanced genre grouping file to replace the default genre grouping under Tags (2) > group genres, be sure to update to at least MB 3.4.7770 patch version.
Due to a limitation in earlier MB 3.4 versions, genres starting with the letters U–Z would not get grouped.
Title: Re: Enhanced Genre hierarchy list
Post by: hiccup on April 25, 2021, 06:16:30 PM
updated

lots of changes