getmusicbee.com
Support => Questions => Topic started by: digital_ac3 on August 02, 2014, 07:07:21 PM
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I have been using Winamp for almost 10 years now. About sometime ago I found this music manager and I have to admit that the functionality is way more better than Winamp. But there is still something I miss in Winamp. Audio quality. I always used Rock preset in Winamp EQ and I did the same in MusicBee. But the the quality wasn't that good. The bass and everything was poor. I had to reduce the preamp the a bit because it was making so many unwanted noises also :( And when there are so many instruments playing in a song all those sounds clash together. This is the only reason I go back and forth when choosing a new music manager. I really like MusicBee's functionalities and everything. But the poor audio quality is making me to stay with Winamp. Is it something Im doing with MusicBee? I have googled about this problem and I didn't see many people speak about this problem. Can someone help me to fix this please? :)
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I don't see why MusicBee's audio quality would perform less than any other music player.
I consider myself an audiophile and I'm satisfied with MusicBee. My setup includes a USB DAC, running in WASAPI mode and 24bit output.
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my guess is you have the equaliser set such that sound is being clipped. Try with a lower pre-amp value
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my guess is you have the equaliser set such that sound is being clipped. Try with a lower pre-amp value
I'm using the Rock preset in the EQ. And yes I have to lower the pre-amp due to clipping. :-\ But the clipping and clashing noises occur with stock settings. I didn't mess with EQ :(
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I don't see why MusicBee's audio quality would perform less than any other music player.
I consider myself an audiophile and I'm satisfied with MusicBee. My setup includes a USB DAC, running in WASAPI mode and 24bit output.
That's the problem I have :P I don't know why I'm getting unclear noises and everything.
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Is the MusicBee rock preset identical to Winamp's if you have a look at the values? What happens if you disable the equalizer, is the sound quality the same?
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Is the MusicBee rock preset identical to Winamp's if you have a look at the values? What happens if you disable the equalizer, is the sound quality the same?
Winamp
(http://i.imgur.com/AacOSEq.jpg)
MusicBee
(http://i.imgur.com/Ja5wWCs.jpg)
Both of them on Rock preset
When I disable the EQ it sounds kinda flat-ish. You know how music sounds without a EQ :P
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Both of them on Rock preset
When I disable the EQ it sounds kinda flat-ish. You know how music sounds without a EQ :P
There's a nickname for that EQ setting, "smiley face".
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So isn't there a some way to fix this problem so I can enjoy the audio quality as well as enjoy the functionalities in MusicBee :)
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Without knowing all your settings, it's very hard for anyone to able to "fix" this, 'cause you can't tell if you're comparing "oranges" with "oranges".
- is replaygain active on both players?
- is the same sound output driver being used?
- is the buffer size the same?
- is the output being resampled, and if so, by application or sound card?
And that's just some of the variables involved that I can think of.
It could even be your own personal preference interfering with the result. Subconsciously you prefer Winamp, so it will always sound better to you.
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Without knowing all your settings, it's very hard for anyone to able to "fix" this, 'cause you can't tell if you're comparing "oranges" with "oranges".
- is replaygain active on both players?
- is the same sound output driver being used?
- is the buffer size the same?
- is the output being resampled, and if so, by application or sound card?
And that's just some of the variables involved that I can think of.
It could even be your own personal preference interfering with the result. Subconsciously you prefer Winamp, so it will always sound better to you.
- no, I have disabled replaygain on both. (and I tried turning in on but didn't see much difference)
- yup same sound output driver
- yea to the maximum.
- I have turned off that also on the music players and I don't think Realtek HD Audio does that :-/
I did a little experiment with one of my friend with 2.1 MicroLab system, Skullcandys and some Sennheisers. The sound output was felt bit alive with Winamp. The bass was good. In MusicBee when there are more bass, more the sound get unclear. Its like clashing everything together. But with less bass and less instruments playing together I don't see a big difference.
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I did a little experiment with one of my friend with 2.1 MicroLab system, Skullcandys and some Sennheisers. The sound output was felt bit alive with Winamp. The bass was good. In MusicBee when there are more bass, more the sound get unclear. Its like clashing everything together. But with less bass and less instruments playing together I don't see a big difference.
if you did the experiment with the same file, same output mode, no sound enhancement from equalisers and dsp's, and used the same volume then you are imagining any differences.
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I'm with Steven on this one, any difference you might be hearing is probably placebo.
I downloaded Winamp to test and even with the "Rock" equalizer preset both sound exactly the same to me.
Are you sure you have the equalizer enabled in MusicBee?
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I'm with Steven on this one, any difference you might be hearing is probably placebo.
I downloaded Winamp to test and even with the "Rock" equalizer preset both sound exactly the same to me.
Are you sure you have the equalizer enabled in MusicBee?
Yes. :S Does that means I'm crazy :( :P I should listen to MusicBee for sometime.
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Are you guys just use the EQ on MB or use some DSP with it?
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I tested with just the EQ on
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Are you guys using the pre-made presets or you own ones? I tried foobar2000 and and the audio quality was the same as Winamp. Am I doing something wrong with MusicBee?
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Are you guys using the pre-made presets or you own ones? I tried foobar2000 and and the audio quality was the same as Winamp. Am I doing something wrong with MusicBee?
It sounds like it. Can you give an exact list of all the settings under Player>Audio Player, Player>Sound Effects, the equaliser and DSP in MB, and then all the same respective settings in Winamp? Also any audio-enhancement software on your PC. We'll see if we can find what's different.
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Hi digital_ac3,
It would be helpful that if you capture (record) the outputs from MusicBee and Winamp using an audio cable connecting your PC audio output to input, upload the files to somewhere, and ask forum members to listen to them.
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there is one further possibility with the volume, check the settings tab in the tag editor to see if the files have any relative volume adjustment. As far as i am aware, only iTunes and MusicBee respect this RVAD tag and other players ignore it.
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It sounds like it. Can you give an exact list of all the settings under Player>Audio Player, Player>Sound Effects, the equaliser and DSP in MB, and then all the same respective settings in Winamp? Also any audio-enhancement software on your PC. We'll see if we can find what's different.
MusicBee Settings
(http://i.imgur.com/CQiKozU.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/oIim6Ko.jpg)
Foobar2000
(http://i.imgur.com/nqvY8gi.jpg)
Winamp
(http://i.imgur.com/SzxOI1z.jpg)
It sounds like I have increased the preamp alot. But I didn't. When there is more treble or bass in the song it gets more unclear. Like every sound clashing in together.
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Hi digital_ac3,
It would be helpful that if you capture (record) the outputs from MusicBee and Winamp using an audio cable connecting your PC audio output to input, upload the files to somewhere, and ask forum members to listen to them.
I have a laptop so there is only audio output and mic in. Can't I do that using some other software?
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there is one further possibility with the volume, check the settings tab in the tag editor to see if the files have any relative volume adjustment. As far as i am aware, only iTunes and MusicBee respect this RVAD tag and other players ignore it.
I have turned off replaygain on every player I use :S
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RVAD is not replay gain. Like Steven said, it is found in the settings tab of the tag editor.
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(http://i.imgur.com/joBceFX.jpg)
Nope. None. I was testing with various songs. Ink by Coldplay showed so many problems. I tried it on WMP also. I only get that in MusicBee. The bass, trebles are not clear. :-\ I don't wanna use another music player :'(
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I'm running out of ideas, does using wasapi or asio in player preferences make any difference?
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I've had a play around with my settings, changing them to yours and back again, and I can't produce the problems you describe at all. Have you tried cycling through the different output and sound device settings?
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So does that means there is nothing wrong with MB. It's just my ears want to hear something different ???
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So does that means there is nothing wrong with MB.
Probably.
It's just my ears want to hear something different ???
Not necessarily. If the differences are that noticeable to you, then that could be something real. But what people here have been saying to you is that it's not because MB is designed in any way to produce poorer sound than other players. So probably the differences are coming from some elusive setting, hidden tags, or whatever kind of hardware/software conflict with your system. It could take a while but I'm sure you will eventually figure it out yourself before long. Then let us know what caused the issue.
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I have this same problem, only in my case it is with iTunes Rock preset, I've been using MB for months now but when I first installed it I tried to recreate iTunes Rock preset, both sounded roughly the same to me except that MB crippled a lot. I had to lower the pre amp, I tried different configurations but I just couldn't get the same audio quality as iTunes Rock preset.
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just as an experiment i have made a tweak to the equaliser bands overlap setting to see if you think that makes any difference
http://www.mediafire.com/download/2l6fke7jd7rw94g/MusicBee_Exe_Patched.zip
unzip and replace the existing files
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just as an experiment i have made a tweak to the equaliser bands overlap setting to see if you think that makes any difference
http://www.mediafire.com/download/2l6fke7jd7rw94g/MusicBee_Exe_Patched.zip
unzip and replace the existing files
YES! Now it doesn't make the audio unclear as much as before. And I reduced the pre-amp to -6.0dB. Now I don't hear the overlap like before. I will listen to more different kind of songs to see if it happens. Back to MB :DDDDD Thanks Steven :)
And I don't get why other MB users don't hear this overlap :-[ in Winamp and foobar2000 it almost sound the same and clean. But non of them can match he functionalities in MB so I don't wanna move into another player :DD
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Thank you everyone who helped me in every possible way. I was trying to find a solution to my problem before I came into this forum and some people have mentioned bad things about how unhelpful and rude this forum is. But it's not :DDD Thanks guys.
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Thank you everyone who helped me in every possible way. I was trying to find a solution to my problem before I came into this forum and some people have mentioned bad things about how unhelpful and rude this forum is. But it's not :DDD Thanks guys.
I'm glad that the problem was solved for you. But just out of curiosity, from what background are you coming from with that statement? ::)
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I'm glad that the problem was solved for you. But just out of curiosity, from what background are you coming from with that statement? ::)
I can't remember from where I saw that. I saw that when I was searching for some good comparison. Anyway thanks again.
And I want to ask you guys again. Does MB, foobar2000, Winamp sound the same? without any plugins or so. Just the built in EQ on a preset?
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for the same file, same output mode (DirectSound/ ASIO/ WASAPI), no sound enhancement from equalisers and dsp's, and 100% volume then there should be no difference between any player that is correctly decoding a music file
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for the same file, same output mode (DirectSound/ ASIO/ WASAPI), no sound enhancement from equalisers and dsp's, and 100% volume then there should be no difference between any player that is correctly decoding a music file
Yup. I just tested it and MB, foobar2000, Winamp, they all sound the same. Is it the EQ causing overlapping ?
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Does that mean these changes to the equaliser will be a permanent addition?
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Does that mean these changes to the equaliser will be a permanent addition?
yes i will include the tweaks in v2.4 - i will do another RC version tomorrow so more people see the change and i feel comfortable with how it has been changed
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I can still hear some overlapping with the new changes also. But not as much as before. At the moment I'm using MB without the EQ.
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i've done an analysis of the output data where i set the equaliser gain the same for each band to see what the impact on the data was.
I think the output value is probably 10% higher than it should be so i have further tweaked the parameters. I dont think its anything like as "too loud" as you are claiming though
http://musicbee.niblseed.com/V2_4/MusicBee_Exe_Patched.zip
unzip and replace the existing files
Anyone reading this you uses the equaliser, could you check you are happy with the new version
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My custom presets still all sound OK.
That's about as far as I can comment without A-B testing.
What are we expecting to hear exactly? A little less muddiness in the low end? More distinction in the highs?
Or is this the point where Steve reveals he made no changes, to prove it was psychoacoustic? :P
EDIT:
Again, can't say much without A-B testing, but after more listening my EQ custom presets seem to be a little harsher in the high-mids.
Maybe in the release notes you should mention that custom EQs might have to be re-tweaked.
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My custom presets still all sound OK.
That's about as far as I can comment without A-B testing.
What are we expecting to hear exactly? A little less muddiness in the low end? More distinction in the highs?
Or is this the point where Steve reveals he made no changes, to prove it was psychoacoustic? :P
EDIT:
Again, can't say much without A-B testing, but after more listening my EQ custom presets seem to be a little harsher in the high-mids.
Maybe in the release notes you should mention that custom EQs might have to be re-tweaked.
I thought the same with Steve's new update :P I don't know how to explain it. Its like listening with some poor speakers or headset. You know how it sounds when it hit the lows. I guess bit muddy. I currently use Soft Rock and it's ok. Can I you post some EQ values so I can tweak mine? I listen to Rock, Metal mostly. But I do listen to others also :D
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i've done an analysis of the output data where i set the equaliser gain the same for each band to see what the impact on the data was.
I think the output value is probably 10% higher than it should be so i have further tweaked the parameters. I dont think its anything like as "too loud" as you are claiming though
http://musicbee.niblseed.com/V2_4/MusicBee_Exe_Patched.zip
unzip and replace the existing files
Anyone reading this you uses the equaliser, could you check you are happy with the new version
Thank you again Steve :)
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> Can I you post some EQ values so I can tweak mine?
That won't work. I'm using EQ to compensate for having crap gear (Realtek onboard soundchip -> mini-jack analogue output -> Sennheiser earbuds / Denon headphones / Philips 20 Watt computer speakers), so my EQ settings would be useless to anyone else, since they are specific to my hardware and room.
You appear to be using the default presets, and the ten band EQ? If you're bothered at all about the sound, you should switch to the 15 band EQ, and make your own presets - one for your headphones and one for your speakers.
Turn the preamp down quite a bit (Eg. -6dB) while you make tonal adjustments (you can turn the Windows volume up to compensate while you work). Choose an album that you know very, very well (you know all the small nuances of the music and what it is supposed to sound like, you know it has excellent production, and try not to choose music that has been compressed to hell in 'the loudness wars').
Try adjusting frequencies down as much as up (Eg. to make the bass come together, cutting the mid-highs might be better than boosting the lows). Be as subtle as you can; think twice before adjusting a frequency more than +/- 6 dB (the largest I have is 3 dB). Try not to be fooled that it sounds better just because you made it 'pop' by making it louder - try to think only tonally. When you're happier with the tone, listen to a few more excellently produced albums in different genres and make some tweaks if necessary to average out the adjusted frequencies. Some albums will sound better than others - it's an average you're shooting for.
Keep A-B'ing against no-EQ all the time. Take frequent breaks so your ears don't get fatigued - if you're not used to setting EQ, it could take an hour or two. Don't be afraid to start again from scratch if it starts sounding worse rather than better.
The last step is to bring up the 'spectrum visualisation' (now playing panel settings -> show spectrum visualisations). Set it to 70 pixels high. Turn the Windows volume down a bit. Now play the loudest part of the loudest album you have, and adjust the preamp. You're looking to visually adjust the strongest signals so that they are only just peaking in the visualiser. If you put the gain up too much, you can see too many of the frequencies peaking at the same time, so the wave is flattened. This shows additional compression/clipping (additional to whatever was already used on the album), which you obviously want to avoid. At the same time, you want the gain as high as it will go.
If you are using Directsound (as opposed to WASAPI), once you have the preamp set properly, you can set your windows volume to 50% or 75% or whatever you usually use, then go into the Windows volume mixer to permanently adjust the overall volume of Musicbee relative to everything else.
If you're using headphones a lot or it still sounds a little muddy, I would also recommend using the 'stereo enhancer' DSP, set to no more than three fifths of the first 'notch'. Be aware that there is a bug in this plugin - each time it is enabled, you have to actually move the slider in order to activate the processing. Widening can help to relieve some muddiness and separate out instruments, but if you slide it too far up, it will weaken the sound and it will lose 'punch', so use it very sparingly and subtly.
If you really want to get into EQ, there are free DSP plugins that work with musicbee. Eg. Electri-Q and SA Stereo Tool.
Be prepared to lose a couple of days of your life though, searching for that elusive perfect tone!
And lastly, the sound you get is going to be limited by your equipment. I've got albums that I KNOW can sound incredible, almost as if the band are in the room. But I also know that my equipment can never achieve that with an onboard soundchip and 20€ speakers/headphones. Some guys spend thousands to try to reproduce what the band heard when they were in the control room with the engineer (before it got sent off to some mastering house to be slaughtered by some idiot).
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After the fix, you still need a bit more negative pre-amp than the max positive boost you apply. You can easily verify this by putting the pre-amp at -15dB and all bars at +15dB, it still distorts quite a bit, but much less than before. Is this expected behavior?
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After the fix, you still need a bit more negative pre-amp than the max positive boost you apply. You can easily verify this by putting the pre-amp at -15dB and all bars at +15dB, it still distorts quite a bit, but much less than before. Is this expected behavior?
That will be because of the overlap between adjusted frequencies.
This screenshot (a parametric EQ) shows it well. I boosted 2kHz and 3kHz with 3dB:
(http://i.imgur.com/1mbDydWl.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/1mbDydW.png)
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Hopefully, I am not necroing this too badly. However, I wanted pipe up and praise how much clean sounding mp3 decoding sounds on MusicBee compared to Foobar2000. I stop and wonder what all the big deal is about Foobar2000 in the audiophile community. In my mind's eye, it looks like something stolen from the 90s that lacks features even with its vast extension library. MusicBee actually looks and feels like something premium, but most especially sounds premium. I cannot get over how much better at neutral, stock settings how much better MusicBee sounds, verified extensively on my HD 800 + Objective2 with Booster Board (which, thanks to this uber-rare upgrade, features less than .001% THD+noise!), than Foobar2000 ever did. Then again, even MPC-HC and Kodi have always sounded better than Foobar2000. There is something seriously wrong in Foobar2000's coding, perhaps the way timing is handled or the way it passes sound data to the system, that sounds slightly hazy in a way. Thank you for MusicBee, especially the UWP version that I use regularly.
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Hopefully, I am not necroing this too badly. However, I wanted pipe up and praise how much clean sounding mp3 decoding sounds on MusicBee compared to Foobar2000. I stop and wonder what all the big deal is about Foobar2000 in the audiophile community. In my mind's eye, it looks like something stolen from the 90s that lacks features even with its vast extension library. MusicBee actually looks and feels like something premium, but most especially sounds premium. I cannot get over how much better at neutral, stock settings how much better MusicBee sounds, verified extensively on my HD 800 + Objective2 with Booster Board (which, thanks to this uber-rare upgrade, features less than .001% THD+noise!), than Foobar2000 ever did. Then again, even MPC-HC and Kodi have always sounded better than Foobar2000. There is something seriously wrong in Foobar2000's coding, perhaps the way timing is handled or the way it passes sound data to the system, that sounds slightly hazy in a way. Thank you for MusicBee, especially the UWP version that I use regularly.
All things being equal (bit-perfect playback, replaygain off, flat EQ, etc.) I seriously doubt anyone would be able to reliably distinguish a difference in sound quality between foobar2000 and MusicBee. I say this with plenty of experience using both programs.
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And I reiterate that my findings having listened to both extensively as well as to countless paid and free players on various platforms over the last decade. Foobar2000 may very well be, for all intents and purposes, audibly transparent to untrained or non-golden ears on lesser hardware, such a treble-challenged Sennheiser HD 650 or a distortion-prone Grado through a tube amplifier or a distortion-prone solid state amplifier. I will clarify and qualify this in stating that it is not that MusicBee is the only transparent player but, rather, that Foobar2000 is one of a few which are somewhat audibly flawed. In my experience, MusicBee and even something mainstream and non-audiophile of the likes of Groove Music are audibly transparent, whereas Foobar2000 is not. I can reliably and blindly tell whenever Foobar2000 is playing and is not as transients and dynamic range is highly muted when decoding high-bitrate MP3s. This is while ensuring that playback is bit-matched, ReplayGain is turned off, and no extensions or plug-ins are enabled. I say this as an objective audiophile, being a voracious reader of NwAvGuy, Archimago, and many other objective type audiophile bloggers. Somewhere in Foobar2000's codebase is something not quite right, and that is why I do not recommend it or use it except in duress or with lesser, unrevealing equipment where its MP3 audio flaw is effectively transparent.
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...untrained or non-golden ears...
...high-bitrate MP3s....
...I say this as an objective audiophile...
Dude.